'Everyone has overlooked me here'

Felicitations on your 90th birthday. How are you feeling?

I never thought I would live so long. Many ask me about the lifestyle I lead that has kept me alive so long. But I really don't know what has kept me alive so long. Not everyone lives long for the same reason. It is difficult to say for what reason different people live on. But there is one thing very important for healthy living and that is proper eating. No one can live long if they are careless about their food habits.

Your life is not just for yourself, but for others too. How far have you been an inspiration?

I don't really know. If my living inspired anyone, I would have been able to see it. I would say I am rather overlooked. I have done so much work, but you will not find any writing about me anywhere. So much is written here about so many people, but there are no discussions on my writings, not even on my book about the language movement.

In Kolkata there have been many discussions on my books and writings. Many eminent persons have written about me. That is unimaginable in Bangladesh. Kazi Abdul Wadud, Maitreyi Devi, Narayan Chowdhury, Annadashankar Roy, Bishnu Dey, Samar Sen, Binoy Ghosh, Ashok Mitra, all of them have written about my works. They are very intellectually eminent persons. Regardless of party or preference, they have all written about me. But here, regardless of party or preference, they have all overlooked me.

But why have they ignored you? Do you think it is because they are scared of you?

The people here don't even know that I am a communist. They dub me as an intellectual. They are scared because I expose people's hypocrisy, inanity and ignorance. I analyse incidents and point out errors, and I strip off their façade. That is the cause of their displeasure towards me.

The 1947 partition did serious harm to the politics of the subcontinent. Couldn’t that have been avoided?

What has happened in history has happened. There is no use of discussing whether it could have been avoided. One thing can be said as to why India was divided and Bengal was divided. Jinnah didn’t divide India. Congress and Hindu Mahashabha divided India.

All credible history in India now acknowledges that. The two-nation theory was brought about by the Hindu Mela. This was floated by Nabakkumar Mitra, Raj Narayan Roy. The Muslims had lagged behind, now they were catching up. This spurred on the two-nation theory.

I recently wrote in one of my articles that the two-nation theory of the Hindus was offensive. And the two-nation theory of the Muslims was defensive. Gandhi, Nehru, Patel were all believers in the two-nation theory. That was why Mountbatten was made Governor General after India was partitioned. What could be more scandalous than this?

Huseyn Shaheed Suhrawardy and Abul Hashim had taken up a proposal for a United Bengal, but why was that unsuccessful?

How can that be answered in brief? The common Hindus didn't want partition. Many Congress leaders didn't want partition either. If there had been a movement for United Bengal then, it would have succeeded. But the British didn't allow it then. Mountbatten arrived in February 1947. By 3 June, everything was finalised. No one was given time to think. Everything was done in a flurry. Had there been scope for demonstrations and agitation, the country wouldn't have been partitioned.

What was the role of the Communist Party then?

The Communist Party never thought they would be able to come to power. It saw the Congress as its parent organisation. In 1944 when Congress-Muslim League were holding talks, the Communist Party's slogan called for Congress and the League to join hands. We youngsters were in Kishore League and would use this slogan. That was the stance of the Communist Party, They didn't dream of any revolution.

They saw themselves as an sort of ancillary organisation. They carried out important movements, the peasants' movement, the workers' movement. But the Congress reaped the benefits. It's like over here -- the communists handed over everything to Maulana Bhasani. The communists were in an even worse state before partition. Maulana Bhasani was a people's man, but there were many treacherous elements in Congress.

You were two and a half years in Bardhawan after partition. How was you experience?

We had a good standing in Bardhawan. I didn't feel any significant change after 1947. Then suddenly in 1950 a riot broke out. There were even some incidents in Bardhawan. Some people even set fire to our house. My father (Abul Hashim) broke down in this incident. He no longer wanted to live there. But otherwise we faced no problem.

What was the overall state of Muslims in India at the time?

After 1947, falling into the Congress' hands, the state of Muslims in India was worse than it was under the British. Muslims constituted 14 to 15 per cent of the population in India, but they do not make up even 2 per cent of the jobs. It was even worse in West Bengal where 30 per cent were Muslim but in jobs, only 2 per cent.

After Congress, those known as Marxists who ruled West Bengal for 34 years, did not change from that position. Mamata Banerjee now talks big, but spends more on madrasas for Muslims' education. That education won't get them jobs or anything.

What are your observations on communalism in the country?

There really isn't anything such as communalism in the country. The basis of communalism here was erased in 1947. It has no social basis. The basis of communalism had been the Hindu-Muslim conflict. The Hindus were powerful, wealthy and educated. The Muslims were more vulnerable. This conflict faded in 1947 when Muslims gained a standing. The language movement then came along, bringing nationalist awakenings to the fore. The landscape changed. The new conflict of Bengali-non-Bengali and East Pakistan-West Pakistan emerged. After 1971, the landscape of communalism was no longer there.

What you see now is the use of religion in politics. In the communalism that is seen today, who are the ones carrying out attacks in various places, who is doing all this? There are elements among the ruling class who are grabbing property. They are grabbing Muslim property too.

You spoke of new differences emerging after the language movement. Could the communists play an effective role in those conflicts?

From the very outset communists were opposed to communalism. But most of the communist leaders here at the time were Hindu. There were very few Muslims in leadership. So the leadership changing from the Hindus to the Muslims, proper organisation, wasn’t done adequately.

Did Maulana Bhasani’s Awami League understand that conflict?

There were two issues here – class struggle and the national conflict. The communists neither understood the class struggle nor the national conflict. They raised the issue of class struggle, but how far did they work among the peasants, the workers? They went underground after 1947. How far could then reach the people? They managed to generate their movement in the areas of the indigenous people. They didn’t have any movement among the general Hindus and Muslims.

The national conflict that had arisen then was actually a manifestation of the class struggle. There is a similarity between the two. But the communists failed to grasp that similarity. It goes to the credit of Sheikh Mujibur Rahman that he managed to clearly grasp the emergence of a national struggle, that is, the main bone of contention with the Pakistanis. Maulana Bhasani, AK Fazlul Huq, Sheikh Mujibur Rahman were much more astute than the communist leaders. This sense led them to understand that it was time for a national struggle.

How did you join the communist movement?

I was introduced to the communists from an early age. There were communists among our relatives in Bardhaman. I would see them from my childhood. After coming over there, I became actively involved with the communist movement when I left my job at Rajshahi University.

Was this transformation within you a result of your studies at Oxford?

There were two thoughts always within me -- my father's politics and politics of communist ideology. Initially there was the influence of my father's politics, but that wasn't my ideal. That influence remained as long as I was at Dhaka University. When I left Dhaka University, that influence was no longer with me. The time while I studied at Oxford can be seen as an interim period. That was quite a long span of time. After that I have adhered to communist ideology. My book on communalism is written on Marxist lines.

Did you leave your teaching job at Rajshahi University in protest of Monem Khan’s autocratic behavior?

I had from long back decided to leave my job and take up politics. Later, Monem Khan’s activities spurred me on to leave my job. They couldn’t drive me away or fire me, but they were harassing me in various ways. I left my job to join politics. Maulana Bhasani told me to become the NAP secretary. But I hadn’t left my job to join NAP. I had come to join the Communist Party, not any other party. The Communist Party at the time was split into many divisions. I joined the party of Sukhendu Dastidar-Abdul Huq. The other parties could hardly be called communist. The leaders were not educated. Among the communist leaders, only Abdul Huq had read Karl Marx’s ‘Das Kapital’. But though he had read it, he hadn’t gone deep into it. His writings in ‘Gono Shakti’ were superficial. Like the clouds in an autumn sky, they had beauty but no life. That is why in December 1971 I left the party.

In the sixties you had written about the return of the Bengali Muslims to their own country. How was that return?

Before partition, there was a class of Muslims here who thought themselves to be the carriers of Arabic and Persian culture. But after Pakistan came into being, such persons diminished. Such attitude were not given any value in society anymore, particularly after the language movement. The younger generation began searching for an identity of their own. The spirit of nationalism began to grow within the Bengalis. It was in that sense that I wrote of the return of the Bengali Muslims.

Does the cultural crisis that you wrote about in Pakistan times still exist?

The crisis is there. Then again, Awami League talks about non-communalism in response to that crisis, but the motive is to plunder and to appease India. They try to portray Narenda Modi as an icon of non-communalism. Indian writers and historians strongly criticise Modi and Amit Shah. They are erasing the names of Muslims from India. In reply, Irfan Habib said, before erasing other names, Amit Shah should remove the 'Shah' from his name. After all, the name 'Shah' comes from Iran.

You have been bringing out a cultural magazine for a long time now. What influence has that had on society?

I have been bringing out the magazine since 1974. What influence will it have on society? Even you all don't read it. But still, there is a certain number of people who receive it. In the November issue I wrote, 'From Congress to Janata Party'. The previous issue was about the study of history in India. People in this country don't read that much. My writings are discussed in India. I always say, there is a lack of intellectual exercise among Bengali Muslims here. They jump around for nothing. There is neither much intellect not many writers.

Why didn't intellect grow within the Bengali Muslims?

You can't inject anyone with intellect with a syringe. It needs to be cultivated. If you look at Bangladesh today, there is no intellectual pursuit. No matter what corruption the Modi government may carry out, the communists and the progressive element there study history. They have many historians like Romila Thappar, Irfan Habib and Amiya Kumar Bagchi. But we have no historians in Dhaka University. After Hasan Azizul Huq and Akhtaruzzaman, we don't have many writers either. This is disappointing, after so much struggle since 1947. As for our economy, on one hand you have the metro rail, underground tunnels and such, yet the in villages they have no roads and bridges. The people suffer to no end. There are plans for a bullet train from Dhaka to Chattogram. But we are not Japan. Those funds could have been sent on healthcare. The benefits or development are reaching just one or two per cent of the population. People may not be dying of starvation, but they are suffering from malnutrition. There is disparity everywhere.

What do you prioritise more, politicial process or intellectual exercise?

There was a time when I would visit the villages and organise people. At this age of 90, I can hardly do that anymore. I can't leave the house. I don't even write that much anymore. I write in Sanskriti and a couple of Kolkata journals. But I read a lot. I have many books worth reading in my library on the fourth floor. I buy a lot of books online too.

The communist movement fell into a crisis during the 1971 war of liberation.

They created the crisis themselves. They placed Awami League and Yahya Khan on the same scales. How can that be? Where the people of the country were fighting, building up a resistance against the Pakistanis, they called this a "fight between two dogs." Nothing could be more disastrous that this. They should have fought the liberation war along with Awami League.

There was a meeting at the beginning of April where Sukhendu Dastidar, Abdul Huq, Mohammad Toaha and I were present. A letter of Maulana Bhasani was also shown at the meeting. It was then decided that the communists would also fight. But I was in Jashore on 13-14 April. A statement of Zhou Enlai (Chou En Lai) was revealed where he spoke of upholding the unity of Pakistan. I fell from the sky! There was an activist with us, Syed Zafar. I hurriedly brought him along with me to Dhaka. They took up the class struggle and anti-Awami League line. A national struggle had been taken up and they were busy with their class struggle. It is their foolishness and ignorance that led them to this predicament.

The Bangladesh and the social system for which you fought, the intellectual pursuit to which you are committed, did not materialise. Why?

It is being said that socialism is defunct. Many people come and tell me, you have tried for so long, but nothing has happened. You lacked that attraction of a magnet. I say there are two sides to this. A magnet attracts iron, not wood. After the revolutions in Russia and China, the people were initiated in politics and their standard of living was improved. But there was no political orientation here.

Suddenly a class of plunderers emerged. I read in the newspapers how government office peons and security guards have illegally amassed millions and millions of taka in wealth. There is no one to think about the country and the people. People are lamenting but there is no democratic movement. There is no communist movement. That is why fascism has a strong grip here. They are doing as they please. But there will definitely be a change.

What are your thoughts now about socialism?

Just because socialism has failed in China or the Soviet Union, doesn’t mean it has no future. Socialism is an inseparable part of struggle in human history. Socialism has shown what it can give. Many ask, what is the future of socialism? I ask, what is the future of capitalism? The US were beaten in Vietnam and returned.

Their latest defeat was at the hands of the Taliban and they had to leave Afghanistan. The bell is being tolled for the end of capitalism. The present state of capitalism also didn’t emerge overnight. Those who claim that the days of socialism are over, are shortsighted. The present is final, it is just a moment in the centuries down the annals of history.

We won’t be here, but the next generation will fight. They must fight. If the human race survives, there will be change, unless the capitalist system destroys the entire world. They are not just destroying the workers. They are destroying mankind and the environment.

Why are the leftists in Bangladesh so divided?

The leftists are divided because they do not think. They have no intelligence. They do not have the mindset to struggle. People do not unite and fight. Unity is forged during the struggle. The problem is there is to scope to speak the truth here. If you speak the truth, you disappear.

You are extremely outspoken, but you haven’t gone to prison as yet.

Suniti Ghosh of Kolkata asked me the same question. He asked many others in Bangladesh too, why I hadn’t been touched. They said because there would be too strong a reaction.

You all had built up an intellectual circle centering Dhaka University’s Professor Abdur Razzak. Tell us something about that.

He was like Socrates. He didn't write, but read in profusion. He could speak on any topic. He kept updated on books. He had a vast collection of books.

Thank you

Thank you too