Let’s start with how the work of the anti-corruption commission is progressing.
Working with Transparency International, the problems related to anti-corruption issues are more or less familiar. First we determined our method of work and then talked with the relevant stakeholders, particularly the present and former officials of the Anti-Corruption Commission. We tried to fathom the problems and challenges involved. We are consulting those involved in anti-corruption work including prosecutors, lawyers and judges as well as members of the civil society, student representatives, teachers and professionals. We have also asked for input from all sorts of people by means of email. We have received very good response. We have started consultancy meetings outside of Dhaka. We hope to complete our task within the stipulated time and submit our report to the government.
What factors are you prioritising for reforms?
TIB had an initiative in the establishment of the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC). That is why we also had a strong monitoring of ACC’s activities. We saw that there had always been party and political influence in the appointment of the ACC chairman and commissioner. The ACC secretary, director general and other senior officials come from the administration cadre. ACC is held hostage by political and bureaucratic influence. There are divisions and discriminations among the next tier of officials too. There is corruption, irregularities and disorder within ACC itself. We are looking into ways and means of freeing ACC from all that.
We are also looking into weaknesses of the ACC law. ACC cannot play a role alone against high profile corruption, particularly money laundering. According to legal norms and global practice, the work must be done in cooperation and collaboration with certain other institutions (BFIU, NBR, CID and the attorney general’s office). That wasn’t done. An unhealthy competition was in play. We are looking into all of this. Other than taking suggestions from the stakeholders, we are looking into international practices and our own experiences.
A search committee has been formed to set up the Anti-Corruption Commission. There has been criticism about the forming of this committee while work on reforms is still underway. How do you view this?
This is a matter of concern. The main premise of the search committee is to form the ACC. That is one of the major areas of our work. Much depends on that. Now it is become a dilemma. Under whatever circumstances, the chairman and the commissioner of ACC have resigned. Now ACC is such an institution where no decision can be taken without these members. So it is important to form the commission as soon as possible. There are legal compulsions in this regard too. We are having to reassess how the persons are appointed, who are appointed, what their basic qualifications are and so on. It is a three-member commission now. Will that be expanded, what professions will they come from, how long their term will be – we have to take all this into consideration. It would have been better and positive if the new commission could have been formed after the overall reforms were taken up based on our recommendations.
Prothom Alo :
The last government submerged the country in a sea of corruption. What is the way out of this? Or will we just continue to bear the burden of this “culture”?
Iftekharuzzaman
During the authoritarian rule of the last government, they rendered all institutions infirm and ineffective in order to remain in power at any cost. They created a space bereft of accountability and justice, abusing their power to facilitate looting of state resources and siphoning this out of the country. They thought they would get a permanent arrangement for this. That is why we saw the public anger and the mass outburst.
There is corruption of varying degrees in all countries of the world and this is controlled through the practice of the law. There are many countries that do not have any commission or institution vested with this responsibility. Even so, it is possible to prevent corruption in those countries. That is because the rule of law is exercised within the state apparatus. The bureaucracy also serves to create an anti-corruption environment. Therein lies our challenge. Even through the reforms if we manage to get an ideal and world class ACC, it will not be able to perform effectively unless there are positive changes in the culture of the politics and bureaucracy of this country. Unfortunately, from the very day that the government was toppled, extortion, forceful takeovers, politicisation and appointment manipulations began. That means we are seeing a repeat of the same culture. The moral force of the students and people that emerged through the fall of the authoritarian government, must be transformed into an anti-corruption force. Just as they will ensure the accountability of politics, the state and the government, they will also refrain from corruption themselves.
TIB report says that even after receiving information on money laundering, ACC, CID, NBR and BFIU took no action. So does that mean this money laundering took place with state and government patronage?
From the manner in which money is siphoned out of the country, it is evident that all institutions are directly involved in the process. False proprietorship is created to capture banks and embezzle all the funds. This has been facilitated by the intelligence agencies, Bangladesh Bank, BFIU and such institutions. Embezzlers like the former land ministry were given the scope to launder money. Bangladesh has entered the ranks of countries from where there is highest capital flight. Five times the amount of foreign assistance that we receive, has been siphoned out of the country. And so we are under a huge economic pressure and we will have to bear this burden for many days to come. It is not as if money wasn’t laundered before, but it turned into a despicable continuous culture during the last government. It was an unrestrained sick competition. They created a Frankenstein in doing so. Now they themselves have to pay the price.
Now it is the Jatiya Sangsad (national parliament) that can have the most effective role. The parliamentary committees will look into allegations of corruption, investigate, take action and ensure accountability of the concerned ministry. None of our parliaments have done so. The committees have been perfunctory, many not even holding their obligatory monthly meetings. That is why corruption remained safeguarded.
Prothom Alo :
The government has been displaying a lot of determination in bringing back the money that has been siphoned out of the country. How far is that feasible?
Iftekharuzzaman
That is definitely possible, but extremely difficult and complex. Money laundering is not just our problem, but a problem of the country where the money is being taken. For example, the former land minister has hundreds of apartments in the UK, but according to the laws of that country, he shouldn’t have had the scope to do so. But there is a syndicate there too that creates such scope. And that investment gets added to the UK economy. The same is happening in Canada, Singapore, Malaysia, Dubai. If we are to get that money back, we will have to enter into a process of legal cooperation with the concerned countries. It will have to be proven that they laundered money has be illegally invested in those countries. This is a long-winded process and in the final run, perhaps only one per cent of the laundered money can be recovered. But we shouldn’t lose hope. The countries where the money has been sent, are very sympathetic towards our July uprising and the present interim government. So perhaps it won’t take so long for us as it would take otherwise. But we must step up our efforts. Our concerned institutions must maintain efficiency, moral strength and exert united effort.
TIB is a chapter of Transparency International (TI). Can the TI chapters in the countries of the laundered money destinations play a role?
The TI chapters in the UK, the US and the European Union, along with certain civil society organisations there, have approached the concerned governments requesting that they extend cooperation to our government through due process, in keeping with their laws, assist in developing the skills of our authorities and come to a legal agreement to repatriate back the money as soon as possible. We have met with the UK parliamentary group and the US state and treasury departments. They displayed a very eager and a positive attitude. Many of them have visited Bangladesh too with proposals of assistance.
We see some groups attacking certain media offices to implement their agenda, perhaps out of their own volition or perhaps they were instigated. Those media organisations were attacked during the rule of the authoritarian government too. They played a strong role during the July uprising, taking the news and information to the people
Given the manner in which cases are being filed against MPs and ministers of the former government and also the way they are being arrested, how far will it be possible to ensure they are properly tried for corruption?
It would have been comparatively easier if corruption cases could have been file against the MPs and ministers of the fallen government. The question now remains as to how far they can be held accountable, given the manner in which murder charges are being brought against them. A precedence would be set if they could be held accountable by bringing specific charges of corruption against them.
Prothom Alo :
Discussions on money laundering bring up the issues of bank sector corruption and default loans. The central bank has taken several measures to address wounds in the banking sector. How fruitful do you think these measures will be?
Iftekharuzzaman
The banking sector was one of the main sectors held hostage by the authoritarian government. Unfortunately this was possible because of the irregularities in the highest regulatory body of the banking sector, that is, the central bank. They are the ones who created scope for corruption in the banking sector. The top leader of those who started the loan default culture in the country, was the prime minister’s advisor. They even held the tools to capture the state structure. They were the ones who would determine the rules and regulations of the banking sector. The defaulters were the ones who fixed the rules concerning loan default. Bangladesh Bank would issue these as orders. We are lucky to have a competent and qualified governor now. He has taken several measures. But it will take time for these measures to bear results.
Prothom Alo :
Flawed laws are seen as an obstacle to preventing corruption. For example, even if a person serves a one-year sentence on corruption charges, he does not lose his government job, even after serving in prison, he retains his post, even after the wealth gained through corruption is confiscated, he does not lose his job. What are you all thinking concerning these rules and laws?
Iftekharuzzaman
Government officials cannot be detained on corruption charges without prior permission. The tax laws have provision to whiten black money. It is declared that ACC cannot even raise any question about that black money. These laws are discriminatory and the rules promote corruption. We are looking as to how to bring reforms to these areas. As to the punishments that you mentioned, a National Integrity Award was introduced on the basis of TIB’s National Integrity Strategy. The awards were to be given to those who set an example of integrity in their work. But persons like Benazir Ahmed got the awards instead. We also have to move away from changing such good laws or rules into bad ones. Political and administrative corruption has made corruption a norm, a sort of profession in itself. In bureaucracy it is taken for granted that “I’ll be corrupt, but I won’t lose my job.” At the most there will be departmental action, such as a transfer. That is simply a transfer of corruption from one place to another.
Whenever a government comes to power, it declares that government officials will have to give an account of their assets. But that never happens. Are we seeing the same in the interim government?
The reality is that, the government is the bureaucracy or the bureaucracy is the government. Political and bureaucratic corruption is interdependent, basically for the misuse of power. That is why despite legal regulations, we see the negligence in providing information on assets. About the interim government, I will quite openly state that other than a couple of exceptions, there is a lacking of experience and skill in running the administration. In the meantime, the long-standing politicised bureaucracy has been replaced by another bureaucracy. There has been politisation there too. That is why we see dissatisfaction over promotions and transfers. The interim government is dependent on them. So it is to be seen just how firm the interim government can be about them giving an account of their assets.
Prothom Alo :
According to the Voice of America, there has been an increase in freedom of expression in the country. The new media is enjoying more freedom than during Awami League rule. Then again, certain groups are taking up programmes that are not at all conducive to free media. How do you see this?
Iftekharuzzaman
In no way do we want to see any curb again on the free media and the freedom speech. The media had to go through all sorts of repression during the rule of the authoritarian government. Then again, we cannot deny that a section of the media acted as a tool for the authoritarian government. As a result, we see a matter of vengeance aimed at them. That does not mean the media as a whole can be castigated. I feel the government did not think the matter through when it came to filing murder charges, cancelling accreditation cards and so on.
Another thing is that while the dream of the student-people’s uprising may be the same, the agenda of everyone with this dream may not be the same. We see some groups attacking certain media offices to implement their agenda, perhaps out of their own volition or perhaps they were instigated. Those media organisations were attacked during the rule of the authoritarian government too. They played a strong role during the July uprising, taking the news and information to the people. It is totally unwarranted that they should come under attack now. Rather than any ad hoc measures or making immediate statements in response to these incidents, the government should take up a specific strategy to tackle these matters in advance.
Prothom Alo :
Thank you.
Thank you too.
* This interview appeared in the print and online edition of Prothom Alo and has been rewritten for the English edition by Ayesha Kabir