Prothom Alo :
Greetings from Prothom Alo on the occasion of your 90th birthday. What are your feelings on the occasion?
Serajul Islam Choudhury
Thank you and all dear ones at Prothom Alo. I have contradictory feelings on my birthday. The first thing is that the weight of age is something very real. The burden increases. The second feeling is quite different: The weaker my external eyesight grows, the stronger grows my inner sight. I can see and understand the world, the good and bad in the world, a little more clearly.
Prothom Alo :
In the article "Keno Likhi" (Why I write), you said you write for social change to break out of the circle. You have been writing for over six decades. How far has the circle been broken?
Serajul Islam Choudhury
No, it has not broken. On the contrary, it has become narrower and oppressive. This will not break with words. It will break by means of a political movement, a movement for which cultural preparation is essential. I wanted to remain involved with this movement through my writing. My first book was published in 1965. It was called 'Onneshon' (Search), it was about the search for a way, a path. The names of the books I brought out immediately after 1971, changed. There was 'Nirasroy Grihi' and 'Britter Bhanga-Gora'. The message in 'Nirasroy Grihi' was the country has become independence, but we need shelter, both materially and ideologically. In 'Britter Bhanga-Gora' I wanted to say that simply slipping out of one circle into another is not emancipation. We need to break away from the habit of remaining within the circle.
Interestingly, at the time I also wrote a book titled 'Dwitiyo Bhubon' (The Second World). By 'second world,' I meant the world of literature. Literature, too, is a kind of world, though I did not claim it to be a refuge. In all my subsequent writings, the necessity of social change has appeared in one form or another. In the very beginning, I thought I wrote to express myself. That notion hasn’t entirely been abandoned. However, it has become increasingly clear that true self-expression requires genuine self-development. And for that, one must be connected with others. The obstacle to that connection is the wall of inequality and isolation, a kind of circle by another name. The circle hasn’t yet broken, but that doesn’t mean I’ve given up hope. No such despair has taken hold.
Prothom Alo :
The mass uprising of 2024 gave rise to hope among people from all walks of life. The autocratic government has fallen. It has been 10 months since then. Have those hopes and aspirations been fulfilled, will it at all move in that direction?
Serajul Islam Choudhury
No, people's aspirations haven't been fulfilled. A horrendous fascist government has fallen. That is no small matter. Its downfall was necessary, and it could not have happened by any means other than an uprising. An uprising has taken place, but not social revolution. Without a social revolution, the existing inequalities will not disappear.
In the 1990s, there was a mass uprising. Shaheed Noor Hossain became its symbol. On his chest and back, he had written, ‘Down with autocracy, let democracy be freed.’ But democracy was not freed. Not even parliamentary democracy, which can hardly be called true democracy, was established in the true sense of the word. On the contrary, the autocratic ruler, Hussain Muhammad Ershad, became a partner in power. We saw then, as we see now, that an uprising is not necessarily a revolution.
Most of your writing strongly criticise the capitalist system. But there is some sort of developed culture in capitalist systems too, there is scope for freely cultivating knowledge. How far do we have that here?
Capitalism certainly has its good aspects too. Capitalism broke the chains of feudalism. It brought forward ideas such as secularism, democracy, individual freedom, and a worldly outlook. It nurtured the call for liberty, equality, and fraternity. However, the foundation of capitalism lies in private ownership of property, which means the progress of a few and the deprivation of the many. The driving force of capitalism is the pursuit of profit. Capitalism creates inequality and isolation; it promotes consumerism. It stands in hostility to nature and brings about adverse changes in the climate.
Bangladesh is a peripheral capitalist country. Its rulers have not become rich by engaging in productive enterprises, but have gained wealth through looting, deception, and exploitation. During the rise of capitalism in the world, there existed a kind of patriotism among capitalists. That is absent in Bangladeshi capitalists. Here, they smuggle the country’s wealth abroad, just as the British and Pakistani rulers once did. We have not achieved the good aspects of capitalism, only its darkness sides.
One reason for this is that capitalism today has nothing left to offer, only destruction and fascist oppression. Secondly, our local capitalists have not, as a class, participated in political struggles. They have come to power through the people’s liberation movement. It was the common people who waged the struggle and the capitalists reaped its benefits.
In your writings you have focused much on the limitations of nationalism, but you haven't written much on the limitations of the leftists. Why have the leftists in Bangladesh fallen away from mainstream politics?
The reason why the limitations of nationalism feature so prominently in discourse is that it is the nationalists who hold state power. Power changes hands, but it keeps circulating within the bourgeois circle, and the bourgeoisie are, by nature, capitalist. In my writings, I also address the limitations of the leftists as enablers, sometimes implicitly, sometimes explicitly. The primary reason the bourgeoisie remain in power is nothing other than the weakness of the left.
The left could not remain in the mainstream for several reasons. First, the nationalists considered them their primary enemies. Second, the partition of 1947. Third, it wasn’t just that the left were seen as enemies, they were actively targeted for elimination. That is only natural, since the left are anti-capitalist. Hitler and Mussolini were fierce nationalists, and for them, the number one enemy was the communists. In our country too, from Jinnah and Ayub Khan to Sheikh Mujib and all subsequent rulers, every one of them made the suppression of communists a top priority. Some were lured and co-opted, others were imprisoned, and many leftists were killed.
Even Subhas Bose, an extraordinary freedom fighter, was anti-communist. Though he spoke of socialism, it was of the nationalist kind, whose most prominent advocate was Hitler. In Bangladesh too, we saw that the socialism JSD once raised was also nationalist socialism. As a result, the genuine socialist movement suffered.
The left had internal weaknesses as well. They failed to become true revolutionaries. In many cases, they compromised. At times, they took to extremism, became detached from the masses, and acted in self-destructive ways. The reformists believed that revolution could be achieved through parliamentary elections. The extremists thought they could seize state power by eliminating class enemies, without any cultural groundwork. Yet, for socialists, intellectual pursuit is essential. They were deprived of that opportunity. Most of the time, they were either in prison or in hiding. Even books were hard to find.
Moreover, Indian thinkers propagated spiritualism and a theory of one nation so strongly that materialists could not gain ground. And this 'one nation' theory watered the roots of the two-nation theory and worked actively to turn communities into distinct nations. Thus, the issue of class exploitation was buried under the problem of national identity.
Prothom Alo :
After the 2024 mass uprising, the rightists have ostensibly risen further. Mazars, dargahs and khankas - shrines - have been destroyed in various areas. Even Rabindranath's 'kacharibari' (establishment used for business transactions) was not spared. Do these incidents not disturb you?
Serajul Islam Choudhury
Yes, there are certainly reasons to feel disturbed by these incidents. However, it is also important to look into the reasons behind the rise of the right. Those who are in power, and those who come to power, are all right-wing. None are leftists. The leftists are absent from the political stage. Supporters of the left, especially students, were involved in the uprising, but they failed to provide leadership. A fascist government of a dreadful character has collapsed, creating a vacuum. The question is: who will fill that vacuum?
There are three potential forces: 1. The nationalists, 2. The religious fundamentalists, and 3. The leftists. The nationalists are waiting with the expectation that, if elections are held, they will come to power. The religious fundamentalists are showing various signs of activity and are also becoming organised. The leftists, however, are not visibly present. It was their duty to form a united front and move forward. They have not done so and are still not doing so. What is most concerning is the rise of religious fundamentalists. The kind of state and society they seek to establish is not only conservative but intensely reactionary.
Without a political movement, cultural protest and resistance cannot gain strength. If the left had been united, writers and artistes would have found the courage to speak out
Why is Bangladesh's education is such a poor state? Surely you won't call this too an inevitable fallout of the capitalist system. The 2024 uprising was led by students, but the downslide of education could not be stopped.
The capitalist system certain has much to do with the pitiful state of our education. The primary causes of this fall into three categories, all rooted in class divisions. The wealthy educate their children in English-medium institutions, so they are indifferent to what is happening in the mainstream system. The student movement that emerged was not aimed at reforming the education sector. It was a movement against the inequality caused by the job quota system. When the government responded with brutal repression, the accumulated public frustration merged with it and turned the movement into a mass uprising.
The first condition for improving education is to ensure instruction in the mother tongue. The second is to appoint capable and committed individuals as teachers. And above all, education must be prioritised, which it currently is not. It is not knowledge that reigns, but money.
Prothom Alo :
You’ve been editing 'Notun Diganta' for 23 years. In a country where most publications and institutions are short-lived, this is a significant achievement. But how much has it contributed to social transformation?
Serajul Islam Choudhury
We never expected that we would be able to play a major role in social transformation. Our aspiration was simply to contribute to the cause of change through cultural work, to the best of our ability. Cultural work is essential. That's what we have endeavoured to do, and still continue to do.
Survival hasn’t been easy. The main challenge has been distribution. There weren’t many newspaper stalls before, and now there are even fewer. Not only has the readership of newspapers declined, book readership has also diminished. We were worried it would be difficult to find writers, but that fear has passed. The real challenge now is how to reach more readers.
You will surely admit that despite the positive changes after the 2024 uprising, there have been negative sides too. Religious and ethnic minorities have been marginalised further. Why did the intellectual community fail to play the role it was expected to in this regard?
That is true, but not just in this case. Generally speaking the role of the intellectual community in Bangladesh cannot be idealised. During the Pakistan era, we saw that intellectual loyalty to the state was quite strong. We lost a portion of the dissenting intellectuals in 1971. The infiltration of capitalist culture has clearly taken place within the intellectual sphere as well.
Moreover, it is also true that in Bangladesh, the forces that represent the people have never come to state power. And the previous government was among the worst. The way the government worked to divide every professional group into supporters and opponents, and created an atmosphere of fear, made not only protest but even speaking out increasingly difficult.
Prothom Alo :
How do you see the future of Bangladesh?
Serajul Islam Choudhury
I have always been an optimist and still am. It is true that the crisis we are facing today is unlike anything we've seen before. And it is not just Bangladesh’s crisis, it is a global one. Humanity itself is under attack. But I believe people will not accept this. They will resist. Human beings are not willing to surrender their humanity.
The uprising led by students and the public was also unexpected. People are now much more aware. What is needed is a cultural awakening aimed at social transformation. There are compassionate and intelligent individuals, there is a young generation. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to expect that they will come forward.
Prothom Alo :
Why are Bangladesh's writers and artistes unable to stand up against wrongdoings as they do in other countries?
Serajul Islam Choudhury
They cannot do so for several reasons. The first reason is that, regardless of what we say, we are culturally underdeveloped. The second reason is that, through state initiatives, people from all professions, including artistes, writers, and journalists have been divided, and repression has been carried out against those on the opposing side. It is also true that without a political movement, cultural protest and resistance cannot gain strength. If the left had been united, writers and artistes would have found the courage to speak out.
After the July-August uprising, the images and words young people painted on walls across the country carried one core message: the wall must be broken. Those images and words had long been suppressed because there was no political movement to bring them out.Sera
Prothom Alo :
Thank you.
Serajul Islam Choudhury
Thank you too.