Pope Francis used term ‘Rohingya’: Cardinal Patrick

On the eve of Pope Francis' maiden visit to Bangladesh and Myanmar next month, Prothom Alo joint editor Mizanur Rahman Khan recently spoke to Cardinal Patrick D'Rozario CSC at his secretariat in Kakrail.

D'Rozario was born in 1943, in Padrishibpur, Barisal. He is the Catholic Archbishop  of Dhaka and president of the Catholic Bishops’ Conference founded in 1971 of the Roman Catholic Church  in Bangladesh. He passed SSC from St Alfred High School, Padrishipur, HSC and BA from Notre Dame College, Six years Post Graduate Philosophy and Theology from Christ the King Seminary, Karachi, West Pakistan and late Doctorate in Moral Theology, Pontifical University Of Louvain, Belgium.

He is a member of the Congregation of Holy Cross and was ordained a priest in 1972. In 1990 D'Rozario became Bishop of Rajshahi and in 1995 Bishop of Chittagong. In 2010 he was appointed Coadjutor Archbishop of Dhaka by Pope Benedict XVI, and in 2011 he took over the charge as the Metropolitan Archbishop of Dhaka.

Pope Francis raised him to the rank of cardinal at a consistory held on 19 November 2016. Cardinal Patrick D'Rozario is the first Bengali in history to be part of the College of Cardinals entitled to vote for the next Pope.

Prothom Alo: How do you see the first visit of the Pope Francis to this part of the world?

Cardinal Patrick D'Rozario: I see two aspects to his Bangladesh visit. The first is it is a state visit because the Pope is the head of the Vatican. As head of the state, Pope Francis will be go to Savar National Monument, will pay respect to the father of the nation, and pay a courtesy call on the president. The prime minister will also go to meet him. 

But Pope Francis, who is also the head of the Roman Catholic Church, is also coming to the Christian community and also to the other people as a kind of pilgrimage to the soul of the people. He will come as a spiritual leader.

 PA: How many ministerial ranking persons may accompany him?

D'Rozario: The papal entourage from Rome will consist of about 30 people including two cardinals and two archbishops and other priests and lay persons.  The Catholic Church in Bangladesh has invited some cardinals, archbishops and bishops from Asia.  About 12 to 15 of them will be coming as our guests. These invited guests are not part of the papal entourage.

PA: Who are likely to come?

D'Rozario:  Although it is not finalised, the guests may include Cardinal Oswald Gracias, the Archbishop of Bombay. He is the president of the Federation of the Asian Bishops’ Conferences. Other guests will be from some countries of Asia.

PA: Anyone from Myanmar? Did you invite Cardinal Charles Bo?

D'Rozario: Although two Bishops  have been invited from Myanmar, they declined because of Pope’s visit to Bangladesh is just preceded by his visit to Myanmar.  We understand that it's not possible for them to come this time. I know Cardinal Charles Bo who came as Bishop-elect when Pope John Paul II came here in 1986.

PA: Can you recall anything special about that visit?

D'Rozario: It was a memorable sight when the Pope kissed the ground of Bangladesh after emerging from the plane and uttered, "I have come as a pilgrim to the soul of the people of Bangladesh." This is a big respect to all the people where God dwells and thus he affirmed that they're the people of God. So that was one. The second event was the religious service presided over by him at Ershad Stadium for the Christian community of 50,000 people coming from all over Bangladesh.  Thirdly, Pope John Paull II also attended a civic reception attended by people of all religions.

PA: Is it true that the Indian government has shown reluctance to invite Pope Frances? 

D'Rozario: Last year the Holy Father got some indications that India will be inviting him. He announced in October and November twice, that this year he would be visiting India and Bangladesh. But since it was getting too late for the official invitation to come, the Church in India decided to postpone the visit this year, because there was not enough time to prepare his visit both by the state and by the church. However in Bangladesh, we were ready because of last year’s Catholic Bishops Conference of Bangladesh and also the prime minister of Bangladesh invited the Holy Father.

PA: The Guardian reported on 28 August 2017 that ''Pope Francis will travel to Myanmar and Bangladesh this year for a landmark visit that is likely to focus on the plight of the stateless Rohingya Muslim minority.'' Comment please.

D'Rozario: This papal visit was planned a long time ago. At that time there was no question of Rohingya issue and hence it is not the focal point of his visit.

PA: But now?

D'Rozario: The whole world is concerned with this issue. The Pope will surely speak of peace and harmony. The Pope’s visit to Bangladesh will not focus on any particular issue.  The relationship with Bangladesh has been excellent since the time of independence, within a few months after which the Vatican recognised Bangladesh. His visit will be a celebration of good relations that have been existing for many years.

PA: What was the role of the Vatican in 1971 Bangladesh War of Liberation when the Western governments were tilted towards West Pakistan?

D'Rozario: The Vatican always sides with the oppressed, the exploited and the struggle for justice and democracy. This is in general how the Vatican works, not siding with one and excluding other. Pope Paul VI sent his Nuncio during the War of Independence in 1971 and spoke with the concerned people.  Vatican is always against violence and war. War does not solve problems. The Vatican has expressed its concern. So many people were dying and of course humanity was attacked, so many people became refugees and therefore within few months of the independence the Holy See sent a two-person delegation to Bangladesh to work out future relations.  The Vatican recognised Independent Bangladesh. In February 1973 the Vatican embassy in Dhaka was established.  The relationship between the Vatican and Bangladesh is on a different level, not on economic, political, or commercial contracts, but on human, spiritual, religious values. He is coming for no other reason than to express love for the country.

PA: What is the Vatican's aid policy towards Bangladesh?

D'Rozario: Whenever any calamities natural or man-made take place, the Holy Father of Vatican always speaks out for the poor victims and promises to pray for them. Even the Rana Plaza victims were mentioned by the Vatican as victims of modern slavery. A few times the Pope extended financial assistance.  Inspired by Pope Francis, the local church through Caritas Bangladesh is working in Rohingya camps for the relief of 10,000 families in the first phase.

PA: When did the Pope make the statement on Rohingyas?

D'Rozario: The Holy Father made this statement in November. He said that Rohingya Muslims are our brothers and sisters. Nobody has the right to kill them. No person should be killed like this.

PA: According to the Vatican, what type of crime is being committed by Myanmar? Is it genocide, ethnic cleansing or just simple mass murders, arson and evictions?

D'Rozario: The Holy Father has used the word persecution. In his words the Rohingyas are being persecuted and they are our brothers and sisters. He stands and speaks on behalf of the persecuted and the poor anywhere.

PA: You said that genocide or ethnic cleansing has political tone. But we know that as a member state of the UN, the Vatican is bound to obey international laws and the UN recognises genocide.

D'Rozario: Right. But he is mainly a spiritual leader and he takes a position on the side of moral and spiritual values of the humanity.  In a tragic situation, humanitarian concerns should be the first and not political, ethnic, religious, or historical ones.

PA: So he needs to carefully avoid the political...

D'Rozario: Not avoid, but he respects his own scope. He is not avoiding because his role is a kind of conscience of the world. He will talk about different subjects but from different levels, the levels of human values, human rights and peace, etc. He does not claim to have any other forces than the forces of human and spiritual values.

PA: The Pope will meet the ''refugees'' in Dhaka. We have come to know that the Rohingyas will not be included. Why?

D'Rozario: The refugees can be of many types. Many factors such as landslides, river erosion, sometimes migration, may cause displacement of persons. So refugees should also be understood in those terms.

PA: Did the Bangladesh government request a papal visit to Cox's Bazar?

D'Rozario: I am not aware of the request. It will be such a short visit. Initially when the Indian visit was in the planning it, a one-day visit to Bangladesh was given consideration.  The Pope is now 80, so his age is also a factor.

PA: The Cardinal of Burma Charles Bo has consistently talked about the present political situation of his country. But the cardinal never uses what in Myanmar is the political term “Rohingya”. Do you support the use of the term ''Rohingya”?

D'Rozario: I think every country has its own terminology to distinguish the different groups and sensitivity to use or not to use certain terms. In the international arena they are ethnically, historically, culturally recognised and currently addressed as Rohingya. Hence in that perspective we can call these people Rohingyas.

PA: Is it true that Pope Francis has chosen to use the term Rohingya?

D'Rozario:  Whether chosen or not, I do not know, but Pope Francis has used the term Rohingyas because of the popular and current use so far. He has used the term Rohingya as brothers and sisters.

PA: Is it fact that Burmese Cardinal Charles Bo wrote a letter to the Vatican requesting him not to use the word Rohingya?

D'Rozario: I think you will understand that every country has its own sensitivities. For example, the use of the term ‘scheduled caste’ in India, the term adivasi, Garos and Mandis, etc. In that line the Bishops Conference of Myanmar has certain reservations because of the political situation.   However, the main thing is the people. The people are displaced, the people have been persecuted and humanity has been attacked. Therefore we must side with them and the Bangladesh government did well.

PA: When the Pope himself has used the word Rohingya, how could a Cardinal or the Church differ?

D'Rozario: The Pope will never say that he has the final word on this issue.  This is the matter belonging to the local church in that country.  We must understand that in all context, no term should be used in a pejorative sense. They are people as well as being Rohingyas, they are human beings.

PA: Then how do you respond to the government of Aung San Suu Kyi's appeal to the church and the Holy See to not use the term Rohingya?

D'Rozario: This is their political position and we do not enter into political conflicts.

PA: Would you comment on the role of Suu Kyi as a Nobel peace laureate in the context of the Rohingya plight? The Burmese Cardinal has said ''To lay all blame on her (Aung San Suu Kyi), stigmatising her response is a very counterproductive measure,” Do you agree with him?

D'Rozario: I think it is not the question of agreeing or not agreeing. There are analyses that this country had been ruled by the military for so many years. And we have this instance too. Democracy has not come there yet, it is just the beginning. As theologian I value the philosophy of ethics. There are moral virtues like justice. Virtues cannot be achieved overnight, that is the limitations of human beings. Sometimes we judge in the light of the present experience but it must be analysed in historical context. We should not pass quick judgment without seeing things integrally. Virtue always lies in the middle and it avoids extreme polarisations.

PA: How does the Vatican see Bangladesh's religious freedom credentials, such as constitutional mixture of state religion with the secularism?

D'Rozario: As a matter of constitutional rights, Bangladesh recognises religious freedom and they respect it. But whenever a state will not show respect to the other faith, then the Vatican will speak on religious liberty.  When targeted killing was committed in the name of religion, the church spoke against it. The home minister of Bangladesh several times called religious leaders here to discuss the issue of killing in the name of religion. Bangladesh is a land of communal harmony but you see, the bottom of a river is usually calm and quiet but whenever a storm sweeps over at the surface, it raises waves, it could be volatile for the time being. The emergence of some militancy and terrorist activities from time to time is nothing but temporary storm. Bangladesh came into being because of cultural identity of religious harmony. In others states, secularism might not encompass religion, but Bangladeshi secularism includes religion.

PA: Will it be the first papal visit to the Bangabandhu museum?

D'Rozario: Yes. This would be the first visit to house of the father of the nation at road number 32 by any of head of the state of Vatican. But the Vatican ambassadors have visited several times. I too paid a visit there apart from National Martyrs' Memorial at Savar after I was made the Cardinal.

PA: Are you aware of the Pope's personal view on Bangladesh?

D'Rozario: Firstly, he loves Bangladesh. He knows that the people are enriched with human and spiritual values, they are usually happy, they are vulnerable because of climate change and they live in cultural and religious harmony. The Pope knows that more than half a million people are given shelter in heart and soul. We have translated his two books into Bengali. His main message of the book on environment is “Care of our common home” with the ''principle of integration''. He is always inclusive, never exclusive. The persons doing injustice have to be seen in totality. When a person commits wrong, his actions are wrong but the person is not condemned as bad for all his life. Those who commit wrong we do not exclude them from our love and care.

PA: A Reuters report from Yerevan, the capital of Armenia, dated 25 June 2016, stated that a sombre Pope Francis, with pain in his heart, paid tribute to the 1.5 million Armenians massacred in 1915, an event which he has labeled genocide, risking Turkey's ire.

D'Rozario: The example you have cited was an event which took place a hundred years ago.  The language of the time was different as shown in the monument.  In the historical context of such a massacre, the Pope might have reasons to unofficially use the term genocide.  There is no denying a genocide event which does take place in the world of evils. 

Anyway every event has to be seen in context and historical context is one of them.