Interview: Dr Muhammad Yunus (Part 1)
Instead of jail, I went to take oath at Bangabhaban
After the student-people's uprising, Nobel laureate Professor Dr Muhammad Yunus took over responsibility as chief advisor of Bangladesh's interim government. At the request of the students, he took up this responsibility at a time of unprecedented political change. In an interview with Prothom Alo's editor Matiur Rahman and diplomatic correspondent Raheed Ejaz, this eminent economist spoke at length on people's dreams for a new Bangladesh, materialising these dreams through reforms in certain important sectors, a transition to democracy and the prevailing state of affairs.
Greetings, Dr Muhammad Yunus. It's hardly been two months since you took responsibility as chief advisor of the interim government. It's a totally new time, totally new responsibility, perhaps something you hadn't imagined before. How does this responsibility feel? How are you?
Dr Muhammad Yunus: I am well, quite well. This is a new responsibility, and a big responsibility. I am actively endeavouring to build up the capacity to carry out this responsibility suddenly bestowed upon me.
We are all aware that for the past two decades you were subject to all sorts of humiliation. There was the rigmarole of rushing from one corridor to the other in the courts. There was even the derisive comment of dipping you into the river Padma. You could have even gone to jail. In fact, you well could have been behind bars at this moment. But suddenly everything changed. Now it is you who are lending leadership to running the state. This is an astounding and astonishing change. Had you even imagined this could have happened?
Dr Muhammad Yunus: This is a completely new experience. I was just preparing to go to jail two days before all this. I had been going from court to court. Then all of a sudden, instead of going to jail I was taking oath in Bangabhaban. Quite a surprisingly reverse scenario. Similar appeals to take responsibility of the government had been made to me in the past. I had asked to be excused and turned down the offer every time. I never really seriously thought that I would have to take responsibility. But this time it was a completely different scenario. That is why I took up this responsibility.
We had to start off with a crumbling public administration
How did you get involved in this colossal change? How did contact between you and the students come about? At what phase did you give your assent?
Dr Muhammad Yunus: I had had no contact with the student leaders. I was seeing them on the television news. I was viewing it like the movements that take place time and again. I was out of the country when the movement was deepening. I was carrying out a certain responsibility in the Paris Olympics. I was involved in its designing. It was then that the movement had reached a height. A road in Paris was named after me then at that time and I inaugurated it. So I was looking at things there, looking at things here, from afar.
Those from my office who would keep in contact with me were saying, Sir, don't come back now. Things aren't looking good. They will probably send you to jail. So keep away now. We are keeping an eye on things and will tell you when the time is right to return. I had accordingly decided to go Berlin, and then Rome and then Brazil, and so on. It had never occurred to me that I would be returning to the country and be taking up such a responsibility. Then one of the students told my office he wanted to speak with me. That was the first time I had heard from the students. I wanted to know what they wanted to speak about. I was told that I would have to take responsibility of the government. I said, that is quite another matter. I asked whether they had spoken to him and they said they had. So I say, all right, I will talk too, let's see what they have to say. I tried to convince them not to give me this responsibility. I had already distanced myself from such a responsibility. It would not be right to take this up. I said, search for someone else who is suitable. They said, no Sir, there is no one else. You must take on this responsibility. I told them again, look around. After you look around, then let me know how things stand. He said, okay Sir, we will let you know tomorrow. He called again the next day and said, Sir, there is no other way. You must come. You must take up this duty. You must come immediately. I told them that I was in hospital and would not be able to come so fast. I will consult the physician and see what he said. However, I said, since you have sacrificed so many lives and are saying that I must take the responsibility, no matter what reservations I may have, I acquiesce to your request. But I need to consult with the physician first to let you know when I can come. He said, no Sir, you have to come soon. So I spoke to the physician at the hospital. The physician said, you are supposed to stay in hospital tomorrow too. I will see if I can get you released tomorrow. The next day when I woke up in the morning, the physician said, you may leave now if you want. The doctor released me and I returned to the country.
We are trying, but the law and order situation is still not back to normal as yet
You took this decision. Did you have a chance to consult with anyone else, other than the student leaders?
Dr Muhammad Yunus: I did not even know who else there is. I had no idea of anything.
Your relationship with the student leaders...
Dr Muhammad Yunus: I did not have any sort of relation with them. I did not know who they were. I first saw them only after I returned to Dhaka. They were at the airport. That's when I was introduced to them.
You took over responsibility of the country two months ago at a critical juncture. It was an eventful time. How would you evaluate this span of time, the July-August period, your return and taking over responsibility?
Dr Muhammad Yunus: Things happened so fast. I returned and took oath that very night. Everything was topsy-turvy. I was supposed to go to jail upon my return, instead things took quite a different turn! What was to be done? Who were these persons? Who will be at the swearing in? Everything was new! It was a whole new scenario. But still, I thought since they asked me to take responsibility, since I agreed, I would carry out my responsibility accordingly. Thus I embarked on this journey in an unknown world with unknown associates.
The army is playing a role as how it should be in a democratic state
You were an advisor in the 1996 caretaker government. After that you have had no opportunity to visit Bangabhaban or Ganabhaban. Or did you?
Dr Muhammad Yunus: I went when governments other than Awami League were in power. They invited me. I was even invited to the swearing in of Awami League's first government. And I attended that too.
You attended the United General Assembly session this time too. On a departure from the norms, you had a meeting with Joe Biden too. And then Clinton. Then many heads of state. You had meetings with the heads of the European Union, the World Bank, the International Monetary Fund. We noted a lot of interest and enthusiasm about the changes in Bangladesh and also about you. Your presence, your identity made a big difference. You met many old friends. You took part in many events. On the whole, what sort of response did you receive regarding the new Bangladesh?
Dr. Muhammad Yunus: Everyone was enthusiastic. Hope sprung up that this country would be able to rise up again. They hadn't been too pleased with what they had been observing in the country. Now that I was in front of them, they expressed their enthusiasm about the change. I knew many of them, they were friends and acquaintances. I was very close to many of them. So they were pleased to have me there. They expressed their happiness in so many ways.
I held official meetings. But the official meetings turned into a meeting of friends. They said, what do you need? We will arrange things accordingly. They really took me to be one of them. Many of the officials knew me because I was involved in several organisations. They received me in that manner, very eagerly. They were eager to know what support and cooperation they could extend us in the changed circumstances. I made it very clear too that it wouldn't do to view things same as before. A new situation had arisen and this called for a new way of thinking. Old calculations would have to be discarded. We made to take a big jump. It won't do to have so many conditionalities as before. I stressed this point with whomever I held meetings and they appreciated it. In fact, one of them made a phone call right from there, issuing instructions: Do this right now.
We were talking and directives were being sent out too. I felt hugely encouraged. I said, it won't be enough just to step up the funds, but things must be speeded up too... if we sign an agreement, it takes years for the funds to come through and then it comes to no use. I said we need things speedily. This change needs immediate changes. So make all the formalities concise so we can set to task immediately. Everyone appreciated that and said, we understand. We will make sure things are done speedily.
The strong point of the army is that we correct things if we make mistakes
They carried things out fast. You will also have to see that things are carried out here in the country. That is why the initiatives you have taken for reforms are vital.
Dr Muhammad Yunus: Definitely. Our emphasis is on reforms. If we are to carry out reforms, we have to do this speedily. We do not have the scope to carry out reforms in a slow and steady manner. So we have to start the reforms from now. We are starting work from a devastated structure.
That is the point I was about to make. From the outside, you did not know so much about the inside of the country. You just knew in general about the wrongdoings, the injustices, the corruption, the politicisation. So once you took responsibility, what did you see?
Dr Muhammad Yunus: A completely broken-down state of affairs. Nothing was functioning. There was an administrative structure, everything aimed at the veneration of one individual. Everything was in place to follow that one individual's orders, to fulfill that individual's wishes. They were not bothered about the demands of the state. So we had to start off with a disjointed and crumbling public administration.
So it's a tough journey that you have embarked upon...
Dr Muhammad Yunus: Extremely tough.
Did you anticipate this before you came to this position?
Dr Muhammad Yunus: Once we entered, it was clear. Earlier it was evident, but in a hazy manner. From outside it is hard to comprehend the extent of the damage within. There are so many things to understand, why certain orders were issued, what was done, how the funds were spent, why the contracts were signed, and so on. How was the money distributed? It was a free-for-all, take whatever you can, this was the chance. That was how things were running. Now we have to bring order to that situation, there is no other alternative. It is a difficult task to clear all this up.
It is difficult and also requires time. When you arrived at the airport on 8 August this year, you said your first task was to restore law and order, to normalise the situation. How successful have you been?
Dr Muhammad Yunus: We are trying. We have not been successful as yet. Law and order is not completely back to normal as yet. I do not want to go into explanations, but things haven't improved that much. They may have improved to an extent, but not to the level required. So our utmost effort will be to stabilise that. That is our primary task. Unless that is done, we can't carry out the rest of the tasks.
The task is certainly not that easy. The police force has broken down. How can you reassure the people? Is the administration cooperating?
Dr Muhammad Yunus: There is cooperation from the top levels, but we hear of speculations about secret things going on. We are not placing must importance on that. As we weren't getting complete service from the police, we requested the armed forces to come forward. They did. Then they said we do not have the scope to work. That is when the question of providing them with magistracy powers arose. I agreed. Initially we have given them magistracy powers for two months so that they can take up the task.
Is two months adequate?
Dr Muhammad Yunus: We thought we'll initially provide this for two months and then see how things proceed. If we see this is working out, then we will extend it. We hope they will agree. But these two months are experimental. There are all sorts of worries too. We don't want this to be a misuse of power. If one person accidently misuses his authority, there is no use in blaming the army. If a member of the army, an officer, does this, the disrepute falls upon the entire army. It will befall us too, people will question this decision of ours. We want to see if things are carried out well.
You are working with the council of advisors now. How is work progressing? Are you satisfied?
Dr Muhammad Yunus: It depends on what you are expecting. The government is a huge machine. We are trying to start up the machine. We are putting it into first gear first to see if it works. If it moves, we go into second gear. Then third gear. That's how it is. We can't just go into third gear and speed off at the outset. We are having to adjust our speed. We have to see how fast we can go into first gear and start off at five or six miles per hour, then speed up to 20 to 22 miles per hour. Then we can go full throttle. But we can't take too much time either. We have to set to work. There is a lot of work, endless work.
A massive opportunity has come to our nation's life. Such an opportunity has never arisen before
You talk about speed. The people have expectations to see some visible initiative, to see and understand the speed. That is how things stand. There are mixed reactions among the people.
Dr Muhammad Yunus: We have mixed reactions too. We are not too happy with things either. No one wants to proceed in fits and starts. Our effort is to start things as fast as possible and proceed at a normal speed.
But reality is that it is not possible to resolve so many accumulated problems overnight. But people just want to see your efforts.
Dr Muhammad Yunus: There are good things. Everyone is saying good things are happening in the banking sector. Then again, they say that there are problems in the share market. One thing goes well, another thing doesn't. We fix one thing and another thing slumps. We have to carry out the actual tasks amid all this. Everything has to be brought to order. The universities had come to a standstill. Those must be functioning, VCs appointed. There are endless tasks. Wherever you look, there is a vacuum. Mammoth work to be done. And speed must be generated. The thing is to start work.
Will you take up other initiatives to start up this mammoth machine? Are there going to be new faces in the advisory council? Any new commissions?
Dr Muhammad Yunus: I see the commissions differently. There has been talk about taking in new members to activate the machine. No solid decision has been taken. The issue remains open. That is how things stand. But we do not want to expand the size of the advisory council too much. That creates problems too.
In the past governments had cabinets of 60 to 70 ministers...
Dr Muhammad Yunus: We are not thinking on those lines. We want to proceed with a small council of advisors. Let's see how far we can manage. The problem is that if the team gets big, there are all sorts of innuendos and it can be difficult to work in cohesion. Then again, there are problems if the team is small. People don't know each other. Fixing a team takes time, it can't be speeded up. There is no dearth of efforts. But it is still not the time to say we have been successful.
The coordinators among the students have taken part in running the government, they are in the advisory council too. This is a completely new chapter. How has your experience been?
Dr Muhammad Yunus: One is our experience. One is our perception. I have always said, the world should be left to the youth. They are of a different world. We have held them back. We have held them back with our old thoughts, old perceptions, old structures. The new ones will go ahead with new perceptions, new thoughts, new structures. The way must be left to them. That is why we say that the sooner things can be left to them, the better. Our responsibility is to boost them. That is what I have always said. And now we have that opportunity. They are agreeable and I am agreeable that we will work. No one will be able to say that these two students are in any way less than the other members of the advisory council. They are not weaker than any advisory councils of the past either. They are very alert, very cautious. They work with much deliberation.
This is a new concept for our country. It was basically the students who lent leadership to the movements of 1952, 1962, 1969 and 1990. But in the aftermath of those movements, the students did not get the scope to run the country or take it ahead. So this is something absolutely new for us.
Dr Muhammad Yunus: It is new to our country, but in other countries the youth is given responsibility. In some countries the youth are prime ministers. They are prime ministers or presidents at the age of 30 or 35. So there is no reason to sidestep youth.
This is not just in this July and August, they have proven themselves in the movements down the years. They have come up with new perceptions, new ideas and new types of leadership.
Dr Muhammad Yunus: That's for sure.
The 1/11 government is called a military government. The military was involved in the entire process, with a few civilians in the front. The army is with you now, is taking initiative, is working to ensure law and order. This is particularly true of the end days or July and around two weeks of August. They had an effort to take the process to a certain position. Now how do you see the role of the army up till the election? What do you want? What do you think?
Dr Muhammad Yunus: The army understands what I think. The army will play the role of how it should be in a democratic state. They will carry out the directives of the government. That is the model of a democratic state.
If we make those roles questionable at the very outset, then it won't be possible to take democracy ahead. It will end here. Then what is the use of us staying around! Where there is no democracy, there is no role for us.
The world should be left to the youth. We have held them back.
We are seeing something different from 1/11 this time. The army isn't coming ahead. This perhaps is because of their trust and confidence in you. That is a major reason too. And that is how it should be.
Dr Muhammad Yunus: I say that too. The army is playing the role that they should in a democratic state and they will continue to do so.
Are you getting their cooperation?
Dr Muhammad Yunus: We have had no scope to complain so far. In fact I have been lauding them. I have been applauding them because unless the army came forward in this change that has taken place, there would have been terrible bloodshed. But they came forward. And they kept the students in the forefront. They did not say, move aside, we will take over now. They did not say that.
They came amidst a lot of bloodshed. Then they brought things under control. They allowed the process to move forward.
Dr Muhammad Yunus: There could have been more bloodshed had they not stepped in then. It would have been a horrendous situation.
Particularly the decision they took on 3 August, not to open fire on the people.
Dr Muhammad Yunus: That was a momentous decision.
We see that you all have been changing certain decisions. That happens when running a government, and should happen too. There have been reactions among the people about forming committees and then changing these. There are speculations about whether these are weaknesses of the government or lack of coordination. Do you see any such weaknesses?
Dr Muhammad Yunus: Different people can see things in different ways. I would say that a strong point of the government is that we fix any mistakes that we may make. We don't stubbornly cling to our stand. It is not that since we are in the government, we will stick to what we have said. We are not doing that. We see that perhaps it would be better to do certain things in a different way, and so we do so. I think this is our strength. We have the power to think holistically. We amend our mistakes. We try to do better. We do what is appropriate.
A massive change has taken place. There were opportunities in the past too. There was the fall of Ershad in 1990. There were a few good elections. There was the forming of a caretaker government in 2007, etc. But all said and done, things did not improve. Instead we got an extreme autocratic government. We don't learn. What lesson should we learn this time? How optimistic are you?
Dr Muhammad Yunus: I look at it this way. A massive opportunity has come to our nation's life. Such an opportunity has never arisen before, not even in all the examples you just cited. The students have used a beautiful term and that is "reforms". We did not take up such reforms in the past. It was just shifting from one government to another. This time the matter of reforms has arisen and we have brought that to the forefront. That is the main issue.
Reforms are a major issue of this interim government. Anyone can stage elections at any time. There can be elections, these are rigged and power is taken over. But this time it is reforms. Reforms mean we will not allow a repetition of what happened in the past. We may not be able to do so 100 per cent, but as close as possible with the entire nation. And not by brute force. The interim government will not just do things alone, but with everyone. We will ask, what can be done so these things are not repeated in the future? We will explain to everyone, we will ask the political parties to explain what reforms they want. You won't get this chance again. It won't be possible. It won't be possible legally. You can get things done through us. For example, amending the constitution. You won't be able to do so. You can get it done through us. We will do your work for you. We are drawing up a draft for you, to make things easier. You can tear it up and make another one. Give us another one. We will work along with you.
What are your objectives 1, 2 and 3 of this reform exercise?
Dr Muhammad Yunus: First is the constitution, a massive task. The constitution must be amended. The judiciary must be amended. You will get all this within a few days. All of the six commissions that we have formed are important. We are coming up with more commissions. Once those come up, you will see we will come up with many issues. There are many things pent up in our minds. You all have written a lot. Just place a paper in front of you and say in consensus how far you want to go. This will go as you determine. Our work is just to facilitate. We have this opportunity now. You all created this opportunity, not us.
Given everything you see around you, are you hopeful that you will be able to go far ahead with the commission initiatives along with everyone, including the political parties?
Dr Muhammad Yunus: I am 100 per cent optimistic. No matter what people may say, everyone wants reforms. There really is no alternative. You may be able to manage things, but then your children will get stuck. They will have to fall back into this abyss. We have climbed out of this abyss. The destruction from which we have emerged will be created all over again. So the responsibility to correct it is yours. We are just facilitating.