Unite for reforms, this chance won’t come again
After the student-people uprising, Nobel laureate Professor Dr. Muhammad Yunus took over responsibility as chief advisor of Bangladesh’s interim government. At the request of the students, he took up this responsibility at a time of unprecedented political change. In an interview with Prothom Alo’s editor Matiur Rahman and diplomatic correspondent Raheed Ejaz, this eminent economist spoke at length on people’s dreams for a new Bangladesh, materialising these dreams through reforms in certain important sectors, a transition to democracy, and the prevailing state of affairs.
Everyone wants justice regarding all the killings that took place during the student-people’s movement. There is also all sorts of talk about trials in this connection. You yourself have also several times said that Sheikh Hasina will be placed on trial. She is presently in India. There is talk of asking for extradition. Do you have plans in this regard?
Dr Muhammad Yunus: We don't need to be a part of this. We are reforming the judicial system. Once the judicial system is reformed, then the issues will come forward, about who will be placed on trial, how justice will be carried out, who will carry out justice, and so on. We are not taking political decisions now. We are just creating the scope. Then you will proceed as you deem befitting. We are just facilitating.
But there was a government, a head of government, a cabinet, leaders behind all this injustice and wrongdoings. There are discussions and demands about them…
Dr Muhammad Yunus: That is why they are being caught and arrested, taken to jail. Everything is being done. But we are not placing them on trial. First decide the process on how justice will be brought about and then follow that judicial process.
There has been considerable criticism about these arrests and cases. How far are the charges true, or how far can these charges be proven? How far can these cases take the trials ahead? These questions are popping up. Many say that this is just the same as in the past. Like the false cases. And the liability is falling upon you all. You are not being able to shrug off this liability.
Dr Muhammad Yunus: That is why judicial reforms are required. It is not as if it can be done just if I say so. That won’t be justice. There are laws for this, but the laws are not good. The laws need to be changed. If we simply made a declaration unilaterally, then we will be going towards autocracy again. We want to advance through a process. It is not as there are no errors in the judicial process. Mistakes are being made. When these mistakes are pointed out, we try to rectify them. You say we change decisions. If our mistakes are pointed out, we then change our decisions accordingly.
If we simply made a declaration unilaterally, then we will be going towards autocracy again
In the meantime we see conflict and hatred being spread in the society. There is the matter of mob justice. Many people have even died in such incidents. There is a sort of unrest prevailing. How will you control this?
Dr Muhammad Yunus: This is all about establishing law and order. These are matters of the law and order situation. These are not political matters. The killings and the mob justice are all matters of law and order. If law and order can be strengthened, this will not happen. If we step up social activities, if people take care of each other, then such things won’t happen. The government can’t go and stop the fights. We can say that you will be punished if you fight.
I am repeatedly saying, we are a family. We may have different views, but that doesn’t mean we are enemies. This must be made clear.
There is a demand looming large to ban Awami League, not to allow them to carry out political activities, not to allow them to join the election. What will you say about that?
Dr Muhammad Yunus: This too is not for us to decide upon. When the political parties sit and hold meetings, they will take a decision. We will take all political decisions from the political parties. We will act in accordance with their decisions.
But you will have a certain stand. Will that come through the commission?
Dr Muhammad Yunus: If the commission deems it will be beneficial for the country, this will be discussed when the matter of elections arise. In other words, that will be placed with the political parties too. They will draw up a draft. It is not that the commission will do it and that is final. The recommendations of the commission will go to the political parties. The political parties will debate among themselves, will discuss and deliberate and decide in which direction we will proceed.
Freedom of expression and media freedom are all much-discussed issues. These were impaired in various ways during the last government and before that too. We have faced repression in all sorts of ways. How can you reassure us that in the future press freedom, telling the truth, freedom of expression will continue unhindered?
Dr Muhammad Yunus: You have been able to enter the prime minister’s office after 15 years. The government did not allow you to do so in these 15 years. Approaching the government was like crossing the Himalayas. But that has been crossed now. There are no obstacles for you now. It is up to you when you want to come, when you want to go. We do not control this. I am not the one to dictate who will read Prothom Alo and who will not read Prothom Alo! I do not have the authority to dictate who will advertise in Prothom Alo and who will not advertise in Prothom Alo. Why will we have this authority! Write as you please. Criticise. Unless you write, how will we know what is happening or not happening? We aren’t any know-all that everything is just happening smoothly. If you all speak out, we can be cautious.
Then again, there still is the manner of certain laws. There are rules and regulations. There are the old laws which are detrimental to freedom of expression.
Dr Muhammad Yunus: That is why we are talking about a media commission. The media commission will point out to us the laws that need to be changed or need to be abrogated. We are not fighting for any laws here. We have no interests involved. We want to ensure that future generations cannot accuse us of creating any obstacles.
Write as you please. Criticise. Unless you write, how will we know what is happening or not happening?
A question has been raised as to how long you all will remain at the helm. When will you hold the election? There was mention of one and a half years or two years. Have you had the chance to fix a specific timeline?
Dr Muhammad Yunus: We are discussing this matter among ourselves. Our work is clear cut. This work is preparing for the election. We must start this work. There will be a stream of preparations for the elections. Then there is the work for reforms. These will go hand in hand. These are not separate matters that we will complete one and start the other.
The election preparations will be about the election, when it will be held, what can be done, how far we will go and so on. Then there are reforms. Reforms are pivotal. This election is to establish reforms. So, when the preparations for the election are done, the reforms are organised but not executed, then the question will arise whether you will go for reforms or for the election. That is up to you all.
We will carry out the preparations. You will see how much time we are giving to these tasks. You will keep an eye on that. So it is not that we will set a deadline or that you will take whatever we can give within this time frame. It is about two preparations. If you say, hold the election, we are ready to hold the election. But it would be wrong to hold the election first.
We will proceed with the election and the reforms at the same speed. We will reach a point when the election preparations are complete. Then the election can be held on any date announced. We will ask whether we will announce the election date or proceed a little further. That is how the time will be fixed.
So does that mean the time frame for the election depends on the matter of reforms?
Dr Muhammad Yunus: To a greater extent. The entire matter depends on what you all want. What will I gain by announcing a date! Some may say that they have a design, that they want to stay in power for a long time! Just take a look at the advisors’ faces. They all look confined, as if saying - let us go. Some say I won't be able to survive with my children. How can I pay for my son’s overseas studies with the salary you pay? This is our predicament -- let’s finish up fast.
None of us are aiming at staying for a prolonged time. We want the tasks to be carried out accurately. That is our objective. What I am repeatedly saying is, this opportunity will not come in the life of this nation again. This opportunity is here now. Put this opportunity to the utmost use. Use us to get the work done so we can all say in unison that the opportunity arose and we grasped that opportunity. Let no one say, the opportunity arose, but we did not grasp it. Let no one be able to say, you failed.
India may be disheartened at certain incidents in Bangladesh. They were not pleased with the changes
Our foreign policy is 'friendship towards all'. That is the policy we follow. Due to our country's geographical and geopolitical standing, we have to take up various stands with various countries. India is our closest neighbour. In very recent times, certain tensions have developed between the two countries. This is evident in their words, behaviour and approach. What steps do you think should be taken to change this situation, to normalise relations between the two countries and ensure that the relations are balanced?
Relations between the two countries must be very close. There can be no alternative to this. They need this, we need this. This is essential from any angle, whether it's about economics, security or water. It will be difficult for us to move along without each other. It is only natural that we have close ties and good relations in every sphere. There should not be any feeling that anyone is pressuring the other. This is a relationship between two sovereign countries. We will always endeavour to ensure this.
India may be disheartened at certain incidents in Bangladesh. They were not pleased with the changes. Things will be clear to them when they see that the entire world is accepting us, how can they not accept us. Since they must forge good relations, it is not as if we are forcing them. This is necessary in their own interests. Just as we need them in our interests, they need us in their interests. So we have to forget certain transient matters. There is no use in mulling over who said what about each other, who made cutting remarks and so on. These are just words. The main thing is to maintain good relations. We have to use everything in our power to advance towards that.
I have spoken about SAARC, even this time. There was interest in this. The heads of government of SAARC countries held meetings with me. I held meetings with everyone except with India. Sri Lanka couldn't come because they only just got their president. I would have had a meeting with him too. So even if just for formalities sake, the SAARC countries took a picture together, indicating that we are together.
That means in foreign policy, you are placing importance on balanced relations between Bangladesh and India?
Dr Muhammad Yunus: It is about strengthening ties and at the same time, strengthening SAARC.
You have brought the issue of SAARC considerably forward. SAARC hasn't been functional for a decade now.
Dr Muhammad Yunus: I have been pursuing this since the creation of SAARC. I feel that this is our future. The European Union can move ahead so closely despite such historical divides, we do not have such a history of conflict. Why can't we be able to move ahead? If we were united, our prospects and opportunities would increase so much. We will have to come to SAARC. We are extending this appeal to everyone. Whoever I have met, all said that they want SAARC.
But isn't the main hindrance to SAARC India and Pakistan relations?
Dr Muhammad Yunus: That can be resolved. Just because there is a problem, that doesn't mean it has to be kept up. There is a solution to this. It can't be that we will keep SAARC but keep the problem brewing too. It is not that there has to be a final resolution to the problem. But we can more or less reach a solution so that SAARC can function. India can keep certain things suspended with Pakistan, but even then move forward. This will be a major policy that I will pursue.
Then there is ASEAN. We should get ASEAN membership. There will be ASEAN on one side, SAARC on the other, with Bangladesh in the middle. We can be with the two blocs at the same time. Then we will have a wider position.
Does joining ASEAN involve economic, business and diplomatic aspects or anything else?
Basically its economic. It is a huge market which we can join. Indonesia doesn't even figure in the minds of the people in Bangladesh as a country. Such a big country is part of ASEAN, yet we neglect it. We needed to build good relations with Indonesia. We could have used this as an opportunity and benefitted from it. We have to expand our world to a wider sphere.
I had listened to a speech of yours long ago, 'Growing up with Two Giants, India and China'. After India, how do you view relations with China?
Dr Muhammad Yunus: Many years ago I had said that is was a large advantage for us. The fact that we are positioned between two large economies is a strength for us, not a weakness. We can learn from both the countries. We will have markets in both the countries. Both countries will come to us. We will have to go ahead maintaining relations with both these countries. This is an opportunity for us.
Our economic relations with China have grown significantly. What do to aspire from them now?
Dr Muhammad Yunus: China's power and capabilities are a steady rise. The country is seeing steady scientific development. It has industrial development. So there is much scope for trade and business with them. There are many things they don't need which we can take. Those things can come to our country. Renewable energy is a factor. I requested China's foreign minister in this regard and he agreed. Their market has shrunk. Americans won't buy their products. The US has imposed sanctions. So I said, relocate these industries to our country. We will manufacture the products and sell them all over the world. The scope for solar energy is steadily increasing. It won't decrease. So we can take this opportunity. This time at the UN I told everyone that we want to be Number One in renewable energy. We discussed who will give how much renewable energy and in what manner. While speaking to the prime minister of Nepal, I said take as much of hydro energy as you want. We will give you as much electricity as you need. Money is not a factor. All that is needed is a transmission line over India. We will discuss the matter with India.
You are talking about taking relations with India and China ahead. But conflicts do arise.
Dr Muhammad Yunus: I do not think there will be any conflict between China and India over the matter of taking hydroelectricity or about solar energy. This doesn't go against anyone's interests.
Bangladesh is strategically located. There is the matter of geopolitics. They consider each other rivals. They want to exert their influence in this area.
Dr Muhammad Yunus: Such thinking must be cleared. They must think in a new manner. There is need for reforms here too. It won't do to think in the old manner. Aren't we bringing electricity from India! So what's the problem with bringing electricity from Nepal!
I keep on insisting on the need to build a "three zero world". A "three zero world" is the answer. There is no other solution. It is about zero net carbon emissions, zero wealth concentration and zero unemployment. We have to put these ahead of all our thoughts. It won't do to just go chasing after development. We have to make this socially acceptable. This is not a development highway, this is a highway of social adaptation. This won't happen until there is social adaptation and climate adaptation. Net carbon emission is number one. Then zero wealth consumption. The proper use of resources.
We are a family. We may have different views, but that doesn't mean we are enemies
Joe Biden sidestepped the norms and held a meeting with you. Then you had talks with Clinton. You had a lot of interaction with them. What message did you receive from the US?
Dr Muhammad Yunus: The message is that they are happy. I went there as the chief advisor of Bangladesh's interim government. They are pleased that a new Bangladesh has emerged. It will be a corruption-free country. It will be a developed country in the social sense. We said that there will be change, there will be reforms. They have accepted these messages. They said, we will help you in all ways that we can. So this was an assurance. They are very eager. It is not just all words and no action. We emphasised two things at the UN. It was not just the US, but the UN, the European Union, Canada and everyone with whom we spoke. We must break away from the way dealings were done with Bangladesh. We want to go big, think big. Our transactions will be from that platform. First of all, thinking has to be changed. Things can't be done in the old way of thinking. Secondly, we have to act fast. If we as the interim government cannot show our activities, people will lose their enthusiasm. If you take your time in providing your support, and the interim government goes away, then another government comes and a few more years pass and you only start handing out your support then, it may not be of any use anymore. It will all be in the past. So provide the funds while the people are still enthusiastic so that we can work. Our economy is not in a good state now. We will need their help to strengthen this. The economy that exists is plundered and looted. We need assistance to revive this plundered economy. We repeated these matters again and again.
After the meetings, you got fresh assurances of support from the World Bank, the International Monetary Fund and others.
Dr Muhammad Yunus: From everyone -- the World Bank, the International Monetary Fund, Asian Development Bank, everyone.
All this must have given you hope afresh?
Dr Muhammad Yunus: Certainly. The enthusiasm I saw at the UN was not just among the big states, but the small states too, the SAARC states. Everyone said, we are with you. Just tell us what we have to do. I spoke to the prime minister of Italy and the prime minister of Canada and others. Everyone is enthusiastic. The Italian prime minister said, a lot of Bangladeshi nationals come over. We have no objection. We can look into how they can come over in a legal manner. The Italian ambassador called upon me today. He also discussed on how to bring this matter under a legal framework.
You have always spoken about national unity, national understanding. It will be very difficult if we can't reach a consensus on the fundamental principles of the state. We see divisions all around us. We see groupings. How can you emerge from this state of affairs? What should our joint efforts be?
Dr Muhammad Yunus: If we look just as the past 15 years, all that we learnt was grouping, divisions and distancing. It was all about who will attack the other, who will assault the other, grab others assets, push one far away. We have to break away from such a culture.
You speak about protecting the rights of the media. I will also speak about protecting the rights of the people in the same manner. People should be able to speak. Who will snatch their rights to speak? There may be divergent views. As I said, we are one family. We may have differences of opinion, we are not each other's enemies. We must keep that in mind: we are not enemies.
We make enemies at the drop of a hat. The previous government taught us well how to make enemies, the process of making enemies. They made you an enemy. They made so many here enemies. They made me an enemy. Such strong enemies, enemies of the country. We have to break away from that culture. Why are we crying ourselves hoarse for reforms today? Because we have to emerge out of that culture.
You speak about national unity. Are there any realistic grounds for such an initiative?
Dr Muhammad Yunus: You tell me, you write in the newspapers. Start doing that, speak out. If that works, let's advance towards reaching a consensus among all. It is not so much about having the same views, but of being united. People can have differing views and different opinions. A father does not share the same views as his son or daughter, how will an entire country share the same views? There will be varied views, but we will remain united.
If we can pass this test, then all the rest will easily fall into place.
These discussions can be raised through the commissions you have formed.
Dr Muhammad Yunus: That can happen. Encourage them to do so.
We can bring about reforms, elections, but there has to be an understanding. You have a vital role to play in this area as the chief advisor. Such a unity and understanding has become imperative.
Dr Muhammad Yunus: There has to be an issue for unity. The unity of the interim government is reforms. If we agree on the issue of reforms, then that is a huge matter of unity. We may all have diverging views, but all are one when it comes to reforms.
Do reforms mean change?
Dr Muhammad Yunus: Change. We do not want to return to the past. There could be no bigger unity than that. If we can pass this test, then all the rest will easily fall into place. We don't want flimsy reforms. We don't want eye-wash reforms. We want fundamental reforms. We will bring about these reforms in such a manner that they cannot be changed by anyone.
We must not hold the election without carrying out reforms. That is my appeal to everyone. Do not lose this opportunity
We saw this unity in July-August...
Dr Muhammad Yunus: What a wonderful unity was suddenly forged! Everything came to a standstill like a rock. Suddenly everything was smashed. They said, we are all one.
That means, unity is possible.
Dr Muhammad Yunus: It is not impossible! It was just two months ago. There was a unity. The entire country was one. There were no divides. Whether religious parties, the left, the right, the centre, everyone was one. They all agreed on one point: We will not go back to the old ways, the past is over.
Children, teens, youth...
Dr Muhammad Yunus: Everyone, no one was left out. We must not forget that power. We tend to forget things amid other matters. We have already started forgetting in just a matter of two months. This must not happen. We will hold on to the unity of this period so that it is permanent, so that we can form a structure through the reforms.
What message will you give the people?
Dr Muhammad Yunus: I have only one message -- reforms, reforms, reforms. Unite for reforms. This chance won't come again. Each and every moment is precious. Don't get embroiled in conflict over this. Discuss and debate over which areas need reforms. But reforms must take place. Make sure after two days you don't say, forget about reforms, we want the election now. We must not hold the election without carrying out reforms. That is my appeal to everyone. Do not lose this opportunity.
Thank you.
Dr Muhammad Yunus: Thank you too.
(End)
* This interview appeared in the print and online edition of Prothom Alo and has been rewritten for the English edition