The consecutive 15-and-a-half year rule of the Awami League government drew to an end on 5 August this year by means of a student-people’s uprising. On 8 August an interim government led by Dr Muhammad Yunus was formed. Professor of the Dhaka University law department, Asif Nazrul, was given charge as the advisor of the ministry for law, justice and parliamentary affairs, the ministry of expatriate welfare and overseas employment, and the ministry of culture. On the completion of the government’s first month at the helm, in an interview taken at the expatriates' welfare ministry in Eskaton of the capital yesterday, Saturday, he spoke at length to Prothom Alo’s deputy head of reporting Rajib Ahmed on the activities of the advisory council, reforms, the the tenure of the government, relations with India, and more
You were a member of the civil society. You were a critic of the government when it came to human rights, freedom of speech, rule of law, the courts, etc. Now you yourself are in the government. How do you feel about this new experience?
For the past 30 years I have been a critic of the different governments. Today I have been in the government for 30 days. It is not as easy to carry out this new responsibility as it was to criticise the negative actions of the government. I have had no experience. But this I can say, if a person has honest intentions, love for the country and will power, it is possible to carry out any task. I believe that within a month or two, I shall be quite adept at carrying out my government duties.
Over the past 15 years, each and every government institution has been destroyed, riddled with uncontrolled corruption, irregularities and politicisation, leaving behind a disastrous situation. This has made things extremely challenging.
The government has been at the helm for one month now. What achievements has the government made in this span of time? And what would you say has been unwarranted?
I would say that the first achievement is that it has successfully created confidence that this is the people’s government. The previous government treated the people as its subjects. We have managed as far as possible to give the people the belief that this is their government, it is here to serve them. You can criticise the government anytime as you please. This free environment has been created. The government has taken many measures to eliminate discrimination and deprivation. This may not be understood clearly from the outside. For example, government officials were deprived from promotions and postings on political considerations. Measures have been taken in that regard. People have been given the confidence that the killings of July will be brought to justice. The false cases filed by the past government centering the student movement have been withdrawn. Some false cases lodged under the Digital Security Act have also been dismissed.
The government has managed to carry out the preliminary steps required to restore discipline to the economic sector, to bring loan defaulters under the law, to bring back money siphoned out of the country. The government to an extent has managed to give the people the courage to dream again. Meetings, rallies, seminars are being held in the capital city. People are speaking out. All sorts of recommendations are being made. This is the type of country we wanted.
We have achieved this after so many years. Certain work regarding international norms for human rights and also signing the convention against enforced disappearances, are important achievements of the government. A commission has also been formed regarding enforced disappearances.
There are some things that may not be visible from the outside. There was an effort to destabilize the government. The government successfully thwarted a coup by the court, a move to use the ansars to create instability, efforts to create disorder in the labour sector and more.
There have been unwarranted incidents too. Cases are being filed here and there. Allegations have arisen that cases are being filed indiscriminately in the style of the previous government. Assaults have taken place on the court premises.
There is criticism about indiscriminate cases and accusations. What steps is the government taking?
We have looked into the matter and found that cases are forced to be taken. Actually during the rule of the previous government, the court and the police were seen as opponents of the people and were despised by the people. That is why they are now under pressure and are finding it difficult to gather moral strength. Even if they do not want to, they are being obliged to take up a mass of cases. Despite their good intentions, the police are unable to control the assaults taking place on the court premises. We are working on ways to resolve this. For example, a proposal was made to hold the hearing of certain prominent persons very early in the morning at an unpredictable time. That is why the assaults have stopped.
Concerning the cases, investigations will be carried out before taking case statements. Considerations are being made to bring about certain changes to the criminal code. Also, the government is giving out a message that recording a case statement does not mean arrest.
So we can say that the random allegations and indiscriminately making persons accused in various cases, is a problem and the government admits this is a problem.
Definitely. And the government is taking measures accordingly. However, this is a problem created by the past government. The Awami League government created a culture of fabricated cases. As a reaction to that, there have been certain incidents in some places. It is not possible, after all, to assuage people's anger overnight.
Now coming to the matter of advisors. Why did you choose to be law advisor?
I feel I understand the law a bit more than other matters. A lot of injustices and wrongdoings can be cleared up by means of the law ministry. Almost 50 per cent of the judges are my students or my acquaintances. These issues encouraged me to join the law ministry. When Dr Yunus asked me to take up the law ministry, I readily acquiesced. But the expatriate affairs ministry is a challenge for me. When I would travel abroad with Dr Yunus I would talk to him about the sufferings of the workers. Perhaps he had that in mind when he gave me this ministry. I want to work for the expatriates. But as you see, it is Saturday and I am here at this office. This is the third Saturday in the last 30 days. I had to attend office on two Fridays in one month.
Ensuring many of the aspirations that the people had in the student-people's uprising -- human rights, justice, rule of law, freedom of speech, voting rights, etc -- are to a great extent a part of the law ministry's work. That is a massive workload. How confident are you about completing these tasks?
Much of the past month has been spent on routine work such as withdrawing conspiratorial cases, releasing innocent persons arrested during the movement, freeing the attorney general's office of the previous government's influence, posting of officials who had been victims of discrimination, helping in various appointments, etc. There is a lot of other work too which a regular government does not have to address. That is why I have not been able to give time to reforms. But by December the initial process of reforms will be visible.
You were working on trying former prime minister Sheikh Hasina as well the party Awami League at the International Crimes Tribunal. Is that still on, or are there any other decisions?
The victims and their families are filing cases under the regular laws in various places. We cannot stop them. We do not have the right. However, the extent of the killings in July is huge. In that sense, it would be best for this trial to be conducted by the International Crimes Tribunal for the sake of justice. We have consulted local and foreign legal experts. This law contains the scope and capacity to duly try those who ordered the July killings. We have managed to explain the matter to the heads of foreign diplomatic missions and the representatives of the United Nations. They have some concerns over the definition of the law, certain problems in the rules of deposition, certain limitations in the accused seeking legal support, etc. We will address these issues and reform the law. Our aim is not vengeance, it is justice for the mass killings.
The concerned foreign quarters say that as the law has provision for death sentence, they cannot take part in the judicial proceedings directly. We said that the law will be reformed and they will have the scope to remain as observers. The accused persons will be able to retain foreign lawyers.
Will the International Crimes Tribunal retain the death sentence?
That is a major policy issue. We cannot simply change this all of a sudden. We have to look into whether Bangladesh has the correctional prison facilities and public culture to abolish the death sentence.
In an interview with the Indian news agency PTI, chief advisor Dr Yunus said he will ensure that the former prime minister Sheikh Hasina is tried. He will request India for her extradition. Will you expand on that?
Sheikh Hasina is the one who planned and ordered the killings of July. These killings will be brought to justice. If the trial is held, naturally the question of executing the matter will arise. That is why the request to India for extradition will arise. The chief advisor's words are a reflection of the people's expectations.
Do we have a prisoner exchange agreement with India?
Yes, we do. However, in some important instances, there is scope to use certain exceptional clauses. Discussions will be held with India to avoid these clauses being used.
We heard a statement of India's defence minister Rajnath Singh. He addressed the Indian armed forces, telling them to be prepared for future war. Does the Bangladesh government have any reaction to this?
The matter has not been discussed at an official level. From my own point of view I can say, India should understand that a government formed through a student-people's movement is in place in Bangladesh at the moment. This government has huge public support, respect and patriotism. The manner in which Rajnath Singh dragged in Bangladesh along with the issues of Ukraine and Palestine, indicates they have a lack of sensitivity and respect towards the change in Bangladesh. Indian policy has failed in each and every one of its neighbouring countries. I would request that India look into its own liability in this matter. Bangladesh will have relations with India, but as equals.
After such a huge massacre, who will say that they should be allowed to hold meetings and rallies right now? They are even conspiring to overthrow the government, to misguide the people
The coordinators of the Student's against Discrimination are now a part of the government. This is a completely new chapter. What is your experience in this regard?
This is a great experience. I am amazed at their performance. The manner in which they speak at the advisory council, the way they work, is very good. I foresee them doing extremely well in the future. I see them as a gift from the Creator to the people of Bangladesh.
No rehabilitation until the fascists are brought to trial. The government will discourage any public programmes of the fascist party and alliance. Advisor Asif Mahmud Shojib Bhuyain made this statement at the end of the advisory council's meeting on Thursday. Would you elaborate on this?
After such a huge massacre, who will say that they should be allowed to hold meetings and rallies right now? They are even conspiring to overthrow the government, to misguide the people. Asif Mahmud's statement was based on the discussions of the advisory council. I feel that the extent of their crimes will be revealed by means of proper trial. In the amendment of the International Crimes Tribunal, Awami League themselves created scope to try any organisation.
The political parties say that the interim government should be given a reasonable amount of time. What do you think should be a reasonable amount of time?
Political parties may want an election. My question is, what sort of election do they want? Do they want an election as in Awami League times, do they want a government system that lacks accountability? Do they want police, a judicial system and an administration as in Awami League times? If they do not want that, if they have respect for the aspirations of the student-people's uprising, then they must give us time to carry out reforms to build a New Bangladesh. It is not possible to specify this time. It depends on how much cooperation we receive from the stakeholders.
An elected government has a role to play in turning the reforms of the interim government into laws. In the past we have seen that many things are changed. What guarantee is there that the new government will retain your reforms?
There are two reasons why I am confident. Firstly, never before has Bangladesh seen such a huge mass uprising, with so many people being killed. I believe the new government will not do anything against the aspirations of the people. Secondly, the reforms will be made keeping everyone as partners, so a sense of ownership is created.
Where do you want to see the country at the end of the present government's term?
I want to see the country for which the liberation war had been fought. I want a country free of discrimination, free of exploitation, free of suffering and sorrow, a country that can stand in dignity among the comity of nations. On a personal level, when I step down, I want no one to be able to say that I did anything wrong. I may make mistakes, but I will do no injustice.
Thank you.
Thanks to Prothom Alo.
* This interview appeared in the print and online edition of Prothom Alo and has been rewritten for the English edition by Ayesha Kabir