Mushtaq Khan is a professor of economics at University of London’s School of Oriental and African Studies (SOAS). He is also the executive director of the SOAS-Anti-Corruption Evidence Research Consortium (SOAS-ACE). After the fall of Sheikh Hasina’s government, Mushtaq Khan speaks in an interview with Prothom Alo’s Waliur Rahman, about expectations from the interim government, political aspirations, geopolitics and more.
There has been a mass uprising in the country, many terming it a revolution. There are talks of reforms in various sectors. There are talks of state reforms, political reforms. There was one type of political system in this country for long. How realistic are the demands that have been raised now?
Mushtaq Khan: What took place in Bangladesh in the months of July and August, is a revolutionary change. The state and government system that was toppled, was a kind of autocratic, authoritarian system. Its very premise was to crush, weaken and destroy all opposition organisations, be these banks, companies or political parties. They had instilled a sense of fear within the people that anyone speaking against them would be subject to enforced disappearance. They were toppled when the student movement turned into a mass movement. The reason of this success was that it had no organisational basis. Awami League tried to revive that fear by opening fire, but they failed.
The power that crushed the government system was unorganised street power. They cannot remain on the streets forever. If our achievements are now to be made pragmatic, things must now be regulated. Organisations must be formed to support these regulations and render them functional. We do have good rules and regulations, but if the organisations or agencies in power do not want to adhere to the rules, and if there is no organisation to counter them, then no matter what laws there may be, these will not be functional. We do not have that counter force. Awami League destroyed all those counter forces. A political settlement is required to render sustainable all the demands that have been raised or all the achievements that have been made.
How will this political settlement function? There are various powers in our country, various interests. There are political differences. In such circumstances, how will a political settlement come about?
Mushtaq Khan: I view a political settlement as the various organised forces and rules and regulations in society. There has to be coordination or harmony among these. I came up with an explanation of political settlement in the eighties. It entails what laws will be enacted in a country, what sort of political, economic development there will be, and on a parallel to see what are the organisations in the country.
We have to understand the difference between an institution and an organisation. Institutions are the rules of the game. An organisation can be a political party, a university, a company or a bank. These organisations are run on certain rules and regulations. But those at the helm of these organisations, do not want to follow the rules and regulations. They are powerful, they can buy the police, they can buy the regulatory bodies, they can buy the election commission. If they can’t buy them, they scare them.
You will have to create certain parallel organisations. For example, it is not as if only one company will import goods. If 50 companies are importing goods, then if one company violates the rules, the others will protest.
The misrule of the Awami League government over the past 15 years has destroyed all of our organisations and institutions. Universities, trade unions, companies, banks – nothing was spared. So no matter how good the laws that you enact may be, these will not be effective. But we cannot give up. We have to strengthen control on one hand, and create organisations on the other.
Things won’t work out very speedily. It will be possible to make some organisations fast and it will take five to six years to create some others. That is the practical side of political settlement. If we try to be a country like Norway tomorrow, everything will collapse. Then the old forces will say, look, they can’t do anything, we can. Political settlement means coordinating between power and laws. Political settlement doesn’t mean having discussions with all political parties in one room and reaching a consensus on any matter.
If we try to be a country like Norway tomorrow, everything will collapse. Then the old forces will say, look, they can’t do anything, we can
After the change in political scenario, there have been demands to rewrite the constitution. Several clauses in the existing constitution give rise to autocracy and dictatorship, it has been said. So many are demanding that a new constitution be drawn up, free of flaws and shortcomings. How ready are we for this?
Mushtaq Khan: No one will deny that our constitution is faulty. Now if I come up with a sound constitution, it will not amount to anything if I do not have organisational strength to render it functional. Before doing anything, we must look into this first. Unless you can prevent the civic organisations, political organisations, political parties from violating the rules, the law will have no meaning.
So should the constitution be changed and then these things ensured, or first should attention be paid to building civic powers?
Mushtaq Khan: These must be done simultaneously. Let me give the example of Nepal. After a mass uprising there, a new constitution was drawn up on an ideological basis. It was fine on paper. It spoke of central, provincial and local government. But later it was seen that the manner in which these three tiers had been made, it was difficult to bring about coordination among them. Now they say that the constitution has to be changed again.
Thailand has a new constitution, but that has to be changed again. The constitution must reflect the real circumstances. You can’t first draw up the constitution then say that the society must be organised accordingly. First it must be seen how the society is being organised and then the constitution must be shaped accordingly. There are certain matters in the constitution that make it ineffective.
We have certain powerful organisations who face no repercussions if they break the law. A political party is collecting funds from smugglers, manpower agencies or money launderers like S Alam. In Britain, the funds given to political parties by companies or trade unions come through legal sources. They do not want the political parties to do anything that is questionable. But if any company does not follow the law, no one will make any contract with it. The entire system runs on contract.
In this country parties are not affected, nor is S Alam. They only face harm when such uprisings take place. Their every day functioning must be obstructed because mass uprisings won’t happen every day. Whatever reforms we carry out now must be done with authority.
Bangladesh is at such a strategic position where there are at least three countries in competition – India, China and the US. They have massive interests and are willing to spend in billions. The Awami League government and indeed governments of the past, have had secret deals and understandings where individuals significantly benefitted
You mentioned reforms. There are demands for all sorts of reforms from various sections of the society. These sometimes even seem contradictory. How far can an interim government meet these demands for reforms?
Mushtaq Khan: The source of power may not be organised, but they are on the way, they are an actual force. It is possible for them to carry out some short-term but vital reforms. Let me give a couple of examples. It is possible to change the leadership in certain government organisations immediately. If this can’t be done, you will get stuck. Secondly, it is possible to take measures immediately against the persons who have embezzled money and taken to abroad. The governor and finance advisor have spoken about this too. All their assets must be seized and international law must be applied against them.
I am involved in anti-corruption work and I know certain agencies that will be only too willing to respond to any call for assistance. There are all sorts of laws in the US, the UK or Europe and so documents have to be prepared accordingly. We have certain disastrous contracts in the power and other sectors, and have already paid Tk 100 for a thing worth Tk 10. All this must be revealed.
Even Indians cannot believe the contract we have signed with Adani. Coal is being taken to Jharkhand from Australia where there is coal. By means of secret contract, the previous government used their people to loot funds and passed a law so no questions could be asked. This law can be cancelled right now as it is illegal. The source of power can be votes, but it can come from the streets too.
One of the reasons that Bangladesh is getting attention from superpowers is its geographical location, it is said. Undoubtedly Bangladesh’s geographical location has geopolitical significance. What influence does this importance have in forming a government?
Mushtaq Khan: It will be noted that many countries where authoritarian autocracy is established, have governments that can collect large funds. They may have oil or coal or gas. We don’t have that, but we have autocracy. If we go a bit deep into the matter, we will see a link to a huge resource and that is our geographical location. Bangladesh is at such a strategic position where there are at least three countries in competition – India, China and the US. They have massive interests and are willing to spend in billions.
The Awami League government and indeed governments of the past, have had secret deals and understandings where individuals significantly benefitted, and the general people remained in the dark about all this. In the parliamentary election, candidates declare that they are India’s candidates. That means India has investment huge funds to keep a certain group in power. Unless this is tackled, whether of the China camp, India camp or the US camp, there will be such secret deals in their own interests.
So a demand must be made now for all Bangladesh’s foreign deals to be transparent and open. Look at India. No matter who comes to power, their foreign policy never changes because it is based on public approval. If I have a foreign contract with the approval of all, then those countries will not feel that it will be disastrous unless one particular party remains in power.
Let us turn to Bangladesh’s geopolitics. Our export market is to the West, but most goods come from China and India. Dependence on these two countries has increased significantly. Do you see any possible changes in this situation?
Mushtaq Khan: If China or India supplies us products cheaply, we will buy the products. It is not a problem buying products from these countries. The problem is whether any secret deal or arrangement is being made. If I can buy edible oil from Indonesia at a low price, I’ll go for it. I will not be dependent on any one country. Competition must be ensured. Hundi, smuggling, yaba, illicit gold trade – all this must stop. Most of this is with India.
The new government didn’t come in through any smooth transition. Economic crisis has long been prevailing here. The general people are floundering under high costs. Can the government handle this complex economic situation?
Mushtaq Khan: It is an extremely complex situation. There have been gross irregularities in the banking system in particular. But the interim government has a big advantage. There are no questions about their integrity. Organisations like the International Monetary Fund are influenced by the West. So I believe it will be possible to get support from such organisations to fix the economy.
We can in this time carry out the necessary reforms. If we can bring back the embezzled money and meet the capital deficit of the banks, people’s confidence in the banks will be restored. If we ask the expatriates to send money through the banking channels instead of hundi, I am sure they will do so.
Had certain banks not been kept running by special provisions, they would have shut down by now. The Islamic banks are in the worst situation. What is to be done to fix the banking sector?
Mushtaq Khan: It was completely illegal to give ownership of so many banks to just a couple of businessmen. They were allowed to take limitless loans with no collateral. There is no need for any new laws to take action against them. The existing laws must be applied. That can clear up 90 per cent of the problems.
Basically, the money that has been siphoned out of the country must be brought back. When Park Chung-hee came to power in South Korea, he detained all business persons in one place and told them to bring all the money back from abroad. With two weeks, a huge amount of money was returned.
So would you say bringing back laundered money would be a priority task of this government?
Mushtaq Khan: The process must start. Banks run on clients’ confidence. Why has Islami Bank not collapsed? It is because, for religious reasons, thousands of people had deposited their money there. They weren’t bothered that it had fallen into the hands of looters. Shell companies were created to take money out of the country. This couldn’t be stopped because there was no capacity in the society to do so. That capacity has to be built up. As the previous political settlement has broken down, this is an opportunity to catch the thieves. This can be done now.
The basic thing is to do the things that are possible to be done as soon as possible. The government can set a time for mid-term plans and do these. Those that will take five years to implement, can be started too. We will miss this opportunity if we haphazardly try to do things that are not possible. That would be unpardonable.
PA: Thank you for your time.
Mushtaq Khan: Thank you.
* This interview appeared in the print and online edition of Prothom Alo and has been rewritten for the English edition by Ayesha Kabir