Laundered money can be retrieved even if the process is complex

Recently you said at a seminar that the objectives of the movement carried out by the Students against Discrimination have not been fulfilled as yet. Do you see some shortfalls in this regard?

As I said before, on 5 August one phase of the student-people’s uprising had ended. An end was brought to the autocratic rule. An unprecedented opportunity arose to run the country in a democratic manner. The building of a new Bangladesh, that is, state reforms, as envisaged by the leaders of the students’ movement, is essential and involves a matter of time. After the 1971 liberation war we had started our journey anew, but those dreams of ours were not fulfilled.

Many people from outside would ask me why there was no mass uprising against all the human rights violations that were being carried out, the corruption, the misrule. They would use Sri Lanka as an example. In the Sri Lanka movement a handful of people gave their lives. But not a single one of them was shot dead by the police. But we apprehended that if such a situation arose in Bangladesh, the police would shoot the protestors like birds. And that is exactly what happened. We cannot let these sacrifices of hundreds of people who gave their lives go in vain.

In our political culture, those in power cling on to power by whatever means. To that end, they render the state institutions ineffective. The students are talking about changing or reforming that system. The objective of state reforms must essentially be to take lessons from the essence of the movement against discrimination and free the country from the curse of power politics, to establish welfare-oriented politics. And it is the political parties that must take this basic responsibility.

8 September marked one month of the interim government led by Dr Muhammad Yunus in power. What changes have you seen in this span of time?

One month is too short a period to assess the success or failure of any government, and particularly so for an interim government. Even so, we can see quite a few positive steps that they have taken. Firstly, the initiative taken to rehabilitate the families of those killed and injured in the July-August revolution and forming the July Biplob Smriti Foundation. The government has also taken initiative to bring to trial those responsible for the killings. We said that the investigations should be carried out under the supervision of the United Nations. The government has acquiesced. The government is trying to improve the law and order situation, though it is still not normal as yet.

After the change of power, there were many instances of mob justice. There were forced resignations. This is unwarranted. State reforms mean reforms in the system. The government has made quite a few announcements regarding a crackdown on corruption. Measures are being taken against those who have siphoned money overseas. The provision to whiten black money has been abolished, though it is not clear how complete that has been. These are certainly positive steps. The people have great expectations from the government. It will take time to meet these expectations. After all, multifaceted misrule has been institutionalised.

TIB works with corruption. Who do you think are more responsible for the massive proportions that corruption has taken on in Bangladesh -- the bureaucracy, businesspersons or politicians? Political leadership may have changed with the change of government, but the civil servants and businesspersons are as before.

Massive corruption has been carried out by the three categories you have mentioned. This is done with collusion among the three. But as politicians run the country, they have the greater liability. The bureaucrats and businessmen resort to corruption with political patronage and protection. With the change in power, legal action is being taken against the ministers and leaders of the former government. That does not mean that corruption has come to a halt or that it will come to a halt any time soon. We see that already extortion and forced occupation has started in various places. Those who think they have come to power or will be coming to power, are the ones involved in this. These are not good signs.

How can corruption be uprooted from society?

It doesn't take rocket science to end corruption. We can apply the experience of other countries. Corruption hasn't happened simply over the past 15 years. Corruption has been institutionalised by all the governments. We saw Bangladesh becoming the champion of corruption both during the Awami League government and the BNP government. Measures must be taken against everyone involved in corruption. The institutions like the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) and the National Board of Revenue (NBR) that work with corruption but be freed from politicisation and their capacity must be increased. These institutions must be made accountable. It doesn't make a difference whether someone is in the government or not.

ACC has filed cases against over a hundred leaders and ministers of the last government. We had submitted details of their corruption to them earlier. But when they were in power, ACC took no action against them. ACC's work culture is that they won't do anything against those in power. In the meantime, top criminals are being released from jail. I have no idea how this is being done. That is why we are stressing on institutional efficiency and integrity.

How far has ACC's activities changed after the change in government? On one hand cases are being lodged against Awami League leaders and ministers, and on the other hand the cases against BNP leaders are being withdrawn. Why can't ACC file lawsuits against those in power?

The change is now that they are displaying a flurry of activity. If the allegations brought about against the Awami League leaders and ministers are tenable, why were these not taken up all these days? ACC has had this propensity from the very beginning. They do not take note of the corruption of those in power. They only wake up when someone goes out of power. Actually ACC is held hostage by bureaucracy and have become a non-functional organisation. That is why we are calling for a restructuring of ACC.

Capital flight is one of the most talked-about issues in Bangladesh. Five institutions, including TIB, have sought assistance from various countries regarding the repatriation of funds that have been siphoned overseas. Have you received any response?

Bangladesh is now in the forefront of countries that siphon money overseas. Massive sums of money are being illegally trafficked out of the country. Those who think that this laundered money cannot be brought back, are very mistaken. But a long-winded and complex process must be followed if these funds are to be retrieved. We have good laws against money laundering. Other than a fine triple the amount of the laundered money, there is also prison sentence.

The problem is that those who siphon money abroad are immensely powerful people. We have written to the countries where the money has been smuggled to, requesting them to free the financial assets so that the money launderers cannot withdraw their funds. Previously Switzerland was the main destination for laundered money, but now the UK, US, Canada, Malaysia, Singapore and the United Arab Emirates have been added to the list. We have sought cooperation from these countries and are following the matter up. We expect good results. But it is ACC and BFIU as well as other concerned agencies that have the main role to play.

The owner of S Alam Group and his entire family have relinquished their Bangladeshi citizenship. Will that be an obstacle in bringing back the money he has sent out of the country?

I do not think this is a problem at all. It does not matter of which country he is a citizen. What matters is whether he has illegally transferred money out of Bangladesh or not. Even if he has given up Bangladeshi citizenship, he will be tried if he has committed any crime. That applies to all other fugitive criminals. S Alam relinquishing his citizenship or Benazir Ahmed remaining a fugitive cannot be an obstacle to carrying out justice. Five organsations must work in coordination to bring back the laundered money. These are ACC, CID, NBR, Bangladesh Financial Intelligence Unit (BFIU) and the attorney general's office.

On behalf of TIB you have submitted certain recommendations for state reforms. For example, the same person cannot be prime minister for more than two terms. The same person cannot hold more than one top office. Then you have recommended an amendment of Article 70 of the constitution. Will the political parties agree to these proposals?

Some parties have already said that there are supportable recommendations. The interim government's view has been positive too. But the main responsibility lies with the political parties. The interim government will create a legal and institutional framework. It is the political parties that will implement this, particularly those that ascend to power. In our recommendations we talk of political parties changing their culture. That has not been highlighted much. Most parties practice power-centric politics, politics centered on personal interests. They must break away from this.

We have said that the political parties must have a moral code of conduct. Leadership at all levels in a political party must be elected by means of open votes. Dynastic politics must come to an end. Autocratic leadership within the parties must be challenged. We have also spoken of proportional votes. This will put an end to the ruckus over candidates within the political parties.

The anti-corruption reform commission is one of the six commissions created by the interim government for state reforms. You have been placed at the head of this commission. What are your plans in this regard?

We will formulate the plans in discussion with all the members once the commission is completely constituted. But importance must be placed on ensuring that the appointment of the ACC chairman and commissioner is kept free of politicisation. Also, ways must be devised to free ACC from the grip of bureaucracy. Importance will be given to reforming the laws and regulations that are an impediment to the ACC act and ACC's ability to function independently. Certain new laws must also be drawn up, such as resolution of conflicts of interest, ownership transparency law, compliance to common reporting standards, etc.

Ways must be devised to free these institutions that are vested with the duty of controlling corruption including money laundering, of all party influence and also to increase their capacity. Above all, there is no way that the matter of reforming ACC can be seen as anything separate from the intensive reforms to be brought to politics and bureaucracy. After all, even if it is possible to establish an ideal ACC, unless there are fundamental changes in politics and bureaucracy, it would be meaningless to expect that ACC will be able to fulfill its mandate.

The Awami League government has curbed that right by means of the Digital Security Act (DSA), the Cyber Security Act (CSA) and various other laws. These laws remain in place even with the change of government. In Khulna a case has been filed against a student under this law. What are your comments on this?

I would say that under the last authoritarian government there were multifarious instances of human rights violations. The demand for human rights was made into an offence. That was done to extend the government's term in power. They used these laws to snatch away people's freedom of speech, to repress the political opposition and more. This was used even more during the anti-government movement.
When the interim government came to power it said that they would review these repressive laws and bring about necessary amendments. I want to have confidence in this. We are not surprised at what happened in Khulna. The recent movement has created unprecedented opportunities, but certain apprehensions too.

Thank you.

Thank you too.